Anyone Ever Have BAD Experiences During Shoots?

[Jodi_Lane]

Hello Everyone!!!

This probably has been discussed before, but I was curious if anyone on here has ever had bad/scary experiences going to photo shoots? Maybe just to fill my curiosity or also to help girls tell the difference between a legitimate shoot or when its a scam. Any red flags that us girls should know about? Perhaps also: What questions should we as the models ask the photographers before the shoot to ensure its the real thing instead of a trick? I'm interested in hearing stories if anyone's willing to share their experiences!

Thanks everyone!
--Jodi

[VictoriaHamm]

Great thread! I look forward to reading the responses. :popcorn:

[Machinegunnwilly]

obviously ask to see their work

NEVER sign a model release form before the shoot

Make sure to read the entire form and if you have any questions or concerns ask before signing. don't ever do anything you are not comfortable with as it may come back to haunt you

I have heard many stories about photographers requesting that you come alone...this raises flags! The model needs to be comfortable, or it shows in the work. There really is no legitimate reason I can think of as to why no one can accompany you, especially if you're new at this.

[TomNine]

I'm also curious to hear what the ladies have to say about this.

First, I think you should ask yourself why you want to do shoots. Do you just want a few nice pictures, or lots of stills and video content? Do you want to cover your expenses by earning model fees, or are you suspicious of guys who pay the model? Do you just want visibility in federation-approved media, or are you open to the fan sites?

Not everyone involved in this industry is suited to enjoy being a model, and not every good model will click with every photographer's style. I'm sure any girl here who has done a lot of shoots has had some bad experiences, and I'm also sure that every photographer has had a few unsatisfied models. This doesn't mean they are all scam artists.

Communication and trust are critical. Do your research, ask around. Feel free to ask to see the model's release before the shoot, some of them are very extensive and wordy.

I remember Danny Corn wanted his models to come alone. I once discussed this with him and said that I am fine with whatever makes the girl more comfortable. Danny responded that having the husband there "NEVER makes her more comfortable."

[jasons805]

From the people I see posting here, and a few other boards I have not seen many of any problems with them. I would question the odd email or IM those tend to be where you might find a weirdo or 2 trying to get his rocks off.

[STL Joe]

NEVER sign a model release form before the shoot

Why?

I think that is bad advice. I used to have models sign AFTER the shoot, but then after having lawyers re-do our releases to ensure that we were protected to the fullest extent of the law, I was advised that as photographers, we should ALWAYS have the model sign the release first. Several reasons....

1) - it puts in writing the expectations and purpose/intent of the shoot... who the shots are for, where they will be published, who controls copyright (photographer, model, or joint), and ensures that the model knows that there are limitations to the photographers liability (for instance, the photographer can state the intention to only use them for submissions to Oxygen, or for use on a paysite, etc... but it's NOT the photographers fault if someone else downloads a pic and then plasters it all over the internet - the photographer has NO control over that, and the release of liability MUST be stated up front and made known to the model
2) - it sets forth the terms of the shoot in writing UP FRONT so that there is no misunderstanding in consideration (what I get, what she gets). Example, if you do the shoot first, and THEN have the model sign a release, she may change her mind, and NOT sign it, if she all the sudden decides that the shoot was too much work, so she wants another $100 bucks over her originally agreed upon model fee, or wants more photoshopped full resolution copies than what was originally agreed upon (VERY unprofessional, but I hear of photographers getting stiffed like this by girls all the time)
3) - it releases the photographer from any liability regarding posing mis-haps. For instance, let's say machinegunwilly asks a model to pose in front of a fountain. But then decides it would be a better shot if she jumps up with her feet onto the edge of the fountain and let the water splash her legs during the shot. Model falls, breaks an arm or a leg. She can sue the photographer for putting her in a potentially dangerous situation. (laws vary from state to state regarding negligence, gross negligence, etc... but generally speaking, this is a concern you don't want to deal with). A well written model release should state and be agreed upon UP FRONT, that the model has the CONTROL of the situation and can decline to do any requested poses or actions that may result in an injury, and she accepts full risk for agreeing to do any poses.

These are just 3 VERY IMPORTANT reasons off the top of my head (without even looking at my release) that a model release should ALWAYS be signed first, prior to shooting. I know that the likely response will be "yeah, but then the photographer can get away with taking shots that she didn't agree to, and posting them wherever he wants, etc...." But you have to keep 2 things in mind - the model can still maintain control of the shoot, and can walk away at any time. And 2, people greatly overestimate the possibilities/concerns of posting things where models don't want them. (models often say "but I don't want them ending up on a porn site" - well..... hate to break it to you..... but if you're not shooting porn, a porn site will likely NOT be interested in having your shots on their site anyway!!! - it's common sense!)

[Machinegunnwilly]

I know friends that have been "pressured" into doing things they never would have done, only to regret it in the future. Some people would tell a photographer to, "F off", while others are simply too shy and get pushed into situations they never would have gotten into had they had a friend tag along with them. This does happen all the time. Take a look at our industry, most of these guys with cameras only have them because they can't get a girl in real life. People such as yourself, Tre, Doug Smith, Dan Ray, Gene X, Tom, and Jeff Binns are great guys. There are plenty of photographers I would not trust anyone I cared to work with.
Typically a girl does her first show and is swamped by guys wanting pictures...some people simply take advantage of them.

[STL Joe]

Chris,

I respect that you are always looking out for the girls (I support that and do the same myself as often as I can), but at some point, I hope to see you start posting more confidently about these girls and their ability to make decisions. Perhaps out of pure happenstance, you seem to know a lot more of the girls who are "shy", timid, and easily pressured into doing something.... but that is certainly not MY experience. Most of the girls I've worked with over the last 10-12 years are VERY headstrong and can sense the "good guys" from the "creepy GWC's" and are very upfront about what they ARE or are NOT comfortable doing. Most the girls I've worked with, I'm confident, would have no problem telling a photographer to f-off if he or she acted unprofessionally or was pressuring them into doing something they weren't cool with.

Also, most of the photographers I know are upfront about the types of photos or videos they plan to shoot, and they stick to that plan. Are there a few bad apples out there, I'm sure. But I don't think it is as common as you make it out to be.

I know friends that have been "pressured" into doing things they never would have done, only to regret it in the future. Some people would tell a photographer to, "F off", while others are simply too shy and get pushed into situations they never would have gotten into had they had a friend tag along with them. This does happen all the time. Take a look at our industry, most of these guys with cameras only have them because they can't get a girl in real life. People such as yourself, Tre, Doug Smith, Dan Ray, Gene X, Tom, and Jeff Binns are great guys. There are plenty of photographers I would not trust anyone I cared to work with.
Typically a girl does her first show and is swamped by guys wanting pictures...some people simply take advantage of them.

[jasons805]

I agree; with the net now you can really vet someone. If someone is a scumbag, trust me there will be a topic about it.
Chris,

I respect that you are always looking out for the girls (I support that and do the same myself as often as I can), but at some point, I hope to see you start posting more confidently about these girls and their ability to make decisions. Perhaps out of pure happenstance, you seem to know a lot more of the girls who are "shy", timid, and easily pressured into doing something.... but that is certainly not MY experience. Most of the girls I've worked with over the last 10-12 years are VERY headstrong and can sense the "good guys" from the "creepy GWC's" and are very upfront about what they ARE or are NOT comfortable doing. Most the girls I've worked with, I'm confident, would have no problem telling a photographer to f-off if he or she acted unprofessionally or was pressuring them into doing something they weren't cool with.

Also, most of the photographers I know are upfront about the types of photos or videos they plan to shoot, and they stick to that plan. Are there a few bad apples out there, I'm sure. But I don't think it is as common as you make it out to be.

[Badgergrl]

I know friends that have been "pressured" into doing things they never would have done, only to regret it in the future. Some people would tell a photographer to, "F off", while others are simply too shy and get pushed into situations they never would have gotten into had they had a friend tag along with them. This does happen all the time. Take a look at our industry, most of these guys with cameras only have them because they can't get a girl in real life. People such as yourself, Tre, Doug Smith, Dan Ray, Gene X, Tom, and Jeff Binns are great guys. There are plenty of photographers I would not trust anyone I cared to work with.
Typically a girl does her first show and is swamped by guys wanting pictures...some people simply take advantage of them.

LMAO! What are you trying to say?? He just called all of you guys out.


Our industry is so tight-knit that you're going to hear who the creeps or scam artists are. If you're unsure about a particular photographer, ask around...see what other girls who have shot with him or her have to say.

I can't say I've had any bad experiences as a model, but I have felt more comfortable/ worked better with certain photographers over others. As Tom mentioned, that isn't something that should reflect poorly upon any of the photographers; I think it's just a matter of chemistry between two people working together...sometimes you have it, and sometimes you don't.

[bigboy7071]

As a photographer, I've had my share of bad experiences in photo shoots but my only bad one with a figure athlete was 2006, the third photo shoot I'd done with a figure athlete. She was an up and coming IFBB pro preparing for her first contest as a pro. In conversations leading up to our shoot I gave her a few options as to what direction we could go with the shoot. She had seen my website and liked images from a series I had called "Watered Down," which involved shooting indoors in a shower. I really didn't want to do that as I was pretty much over that series. Would have preferred to shoot outside and I had given her a few good options for outdoor shots, but she was intent on doing the shots in the shower. I brought suction cups and clamps to hang the backdrop in the shower of the hotel she was staying at. That worked fine. The problem was the bathroom. It had sliding glass shower doors instead of a curtain, the door opened inward, blocking the shower and when we closed the door, the bathroom got all steamy, fogging my lens. The whole situation was a bad experience for me. On top of that, I paid her for the experience of photographing her. I did put a few shots of her in my portfolio and sent a few of them out as samples, but as soon as I started working with more figure athletes, those images disappeared from view, never to be seen again.

[Jodi_Lane]

Wow! Awesome responses...thanks for posting them. I love hearing what people have to say about this type of thing. I can see how EASY it would be to trick a girl into a photoshoot. Many girls who compete are wanting to eventually get into modeling because that's basically where you make most of your money is modeling for sponsorships and etc. Well, girls that are overly eager to get that career started would be easily tricked. I think its safe to say if it sounds too good to be true, don't believe it until you take a poll amongst your athlete friends and make sure the photographer is legit!

[Miss Tiek]

I did have a not so good experience, it was a shoot for a website, the idea was to shoot some pics near the pool and in the hotelroom.
I've told them that I've to eat every 2 hours, the shoot started and after 3 hours we were still shooting, and then there came 3 other men in the room....they have no business there, my friend Jason was with me(he's a karate sensei :D) so I felt save.....but what if I was alone??
After that I did a lot of shoots and it always went well, I told them what I want and the photographer told me what he wants and I've never had any bad experiences since then, don't let you talk into something you really don't want!and always take someone with you...and if the photographer doesn't want it...that's okay but don't do the shoot if you're uncomfortable with it.

Now I'm doing some photography and if I'm in the states I like to shoot some athletes, and I like to work with athletes that don't have to much experience and are uncertain about a shoot, as an athlete myself I know how scary it can be the first time ;)

[Jodi_Lane]

I did have a not so good experience, it was a shoot for a website, the idea was to shoot some pics near the pool and in the hotelroom.
I've told them that I've to eat every 2 hours, the shoot started and after 3 hours we were still shooting, and then there came 3 other men in the room....they have no business there, my friend Jason was with me(he's a karate sensei :D) so I felt save.....but what if I was alone??
After that I did a lot of shoots and it always went well, I told them what I want and the photographer told me what he wants and I've never had any bad experiences since then, don't let you talk into something you really don't want!and always take someone with you...and if the photographer doesn't want it...that's okay but don't do the shoot if you're uncomfortable with it.

Now I'm doing some photography and if I'm in the states I like to shoot some athletes, and I like to work with athletes that don't have to much experience and are uncertain about a shoot, as an athlete myself I know how scary it can be the first time ;)
That's really cool you're getting into amateur shoots. I really think that's important. Serving as a good role model. That would have freaked me out bad if I were at that shoot alone when the three other guys walked in randomly...What the --??? What were they thinking! I think some photographers should know better and realize what will intimidate the girls...and if they don't realize these things then perhaps they're not so great!

[Sherri]

Hey ladies!
I hope this will stop anyone of you from shooting with this MORON!
This particular photographer found me on modelmayhem. He claimed to be from American Curves Magazine and a new local Florida magazine that he himself was putting out. At the initial email, he suggested an all day shoot, tfcd, utilizing his "studio" and the local beaches. He was constantly telling me how "sexy and beautiful" i was and that he would be talking dirty to me to enhance that look and make me feel confident. I assured him that it was NOT necessary, I am a professional, and I am confident with my looks and the outfits I would bring to the shoot. After looking at his work and all of the ladies he used as references, I agreed to shoot on a saturday, however, only commiting to 3-4 hours MAX since it was a trade and he was local. I arrived on time, to find him alone in a condo, that he was "sharing with friend" until his new place was ready. He in a 27year old chris tucker wanna be is the best description of his looks. I brought several outfits, so we went through them and chose three outfits- NO NUDES OR IMPLIED TG!!! Once ready to shoot, he was constantly talking dirty to me, like he was seducing me, yet he swares it was only to make me feel "sexy." He was also constantly referring to another woman, I'll call her "miss a" who is another 40ish fitness model who he had shot with recently and how sexy she was as well. Apparently he has a thing for older women. This went on for about an hour and a half, going through 3 outfit changes still in his condo. I decided that i had had enough, which fortunately he agreed, and I got changed and packed up my stuff. While I was changing, he went to his desk to download the photo's we had taken. As I was getting ready to leave, he stood up, with A FULL ERECTION (I thought it was a joke!) and said, he couldnt help it - I was soooooo HOT and "Miss a" had been too, and she was thrilled to "see the excitement in him" and decided to stay- didnt I? My answer was "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO DO WITH THAT?????" I'm out of here! He was totally shocked and begged me to stay. Needless to say - I got he HELL out of there as quick as I could. After several email correspondences, he finally sent me pics, but he only sent me 3 pics from the entire shoot, begging me to give him another chance. When I refused, he continued to beg me to reconsider. I have YET to get another pic from him and he pretty much has ignored my requests from then on.

Lesson learned - Stand your ground and NEVER go to a shoot alone again! I don't know who "miss a" is so I wont reference her real name, however I believe her actions led this NUTCASE to think that all women want him! NO THANKS and BEWARE!

His name is Claude Taylor and I would DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMEND HIM. Of course I have yet to see any of his pics in a magazine or anywhere else but modelmayhem. stay away girls - there are too many great photographers out there to waste your time with this scumbag!

[Machinegunnwilly]

Anyone that has been around for quite some time would obviously know who is who and recognize names. But when a girl is new to the industry, how would they know. Most people are trusting individuals.

And the reason I post what I do is not due to hearsay, I have had very good friends get into some bad situations...Of course it is VERY rare. But as you have said, I'm just looking out for the models. One guy can make us all look bad.

[JLB001]

Hey ladies!
I hope this will stop anyone of you from shooting with this MORON!
This particular photographer found me on modelmayhem. He claimed to be from American Curves Magazine and a new local Florida magazine that he himself was putting out. At the initial email, he suggested an all day shoot, tfcd, utilizing his "studio" and the local beaches. He was constantly telling me how "sexy and beautiful" i was and that he would be talking dirty to me to enhance that look and make me feel confident. I assured him that it was NOT necessary, I am a professional, and I am confident with my looks and the outfits I would bring to the shoot. After looking at his work and all of the ladies he used as references, I agreed to shoot on a saturday, however, only commiting to 3-4 hours MAX since it was a trade and he was local. I arrived on time, to find him alone in a condo, that he was "sharing with friend" until his new place was ready. He in a 27year old chris tucker wanna be is the best description of his looks. I brought several outfits, so we went through them and chose three outfits- NO NUDES OR IMPLIED TG!!! Once ready to shoot, he was constantly talking dirty to me, like he was seducing me, yet he swares it was only to make me feel "sexy." He was also constantly referring to another woman, I'll call her "miss a" who is another 40ish fitness model who he had shot with recently and how sexy she was as well. Apparently he has a thing for older women. This went on for about an hour and a half, going through 3 outfit changes still in his condo. I decided that i had had enough, which fortunately he agreed, and I got changed and packed up my stuff. While I was changing, he went to his desk to download the photo's we had taken. As I was getting ready to leave, he stood up, with A FULL ERECTION (I thought it was a joke!) and said, he couldnt help it - I was soooooo HOT and "Miss a" had been too, and she was thrilled to "see the excitement in him" and decided to stay- didnt I? My answer was "WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE GOING TO DO WITH THAT?????" I'm out of here! He was totally shocked and begged me to stay. Needless to say - I got he HELL out of there as quick as I could. After several email correspondences, he finally sent me pics, but he only sent me 3 pics from the entire shoot, begging me to give him another chance. When I refused, he continued to beg me to reconsider. I have YET to get another pic from him and he pretty much has ignored my requests from then on.

Lesson learned - Stand your ground and NEVER go to a shoot alone again! I don't know who "miss a" is so I wont reference her real name, however I believe her actions led this NUTCASE to think that all women want him! NO THANKS and BEWARE!

His name is Claude Taylor and I would DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMEND HIM. Of course I have yet to see any of his pics in a magazine or anywhere else but modelmayhem. stay away girls - there are too many great photographers out there to waste your time with this scumbag!

Ahh...he sent me a message on MM as well. I did post here asking about him to see if he was legit. My red flags went up when talking with him on the phone. He is seriously the ONLY photographer that has given me the complete creeps in 9 years of working with photographers!

I do my homework on photographers that aren't so much in our industry and known for shooting us.

I don't so much mind signing a model release upfront, but I do like to read it up front and sign after the shoot along with provide a copy of my ID.

[FemFlex]

Why?

I think that is bad advice. I used to have models sign AFTER the shoot, but then after having lawyers re-do our releases to ensure that we were protected to the fullest extent of the law, I was advised that as photographers, we should ALWAYS have the model sign the release first. Several reasons....

1) - it puts in writing the expectations and purpose/intent of the shoot... who the shots are for, where they will be published, who controls copyright (photographer, model, or joint), and ensures that the model knows that there are limitations to the photographers liability (for instance, the photographer can state the intention to only use them for submissions to Oxygen, or for use on a paysite, etc... but it's NOT the photographers fault if someone else downloads a pic and then plasters it all over the internet - the photographer has NO control over that, and the release of liability MUST be stated up front and made known to the model
2) - it sets forth the terms of the shoot in writing UP FRONT so that there is no misunderstanding in consideration (what I get, what she gets). Example, if you do the shoot first, and THEN have the model sign a release, she may change her mind, and NOT sign it, if she all the sudden decides that the shoot was too much work, so she wants another $100 bucks over her originally agreed upon model fee, or wants more photoshopped full resolution copies than what was originally agreed upon (VERY unprofessional, but I hear of photographers getting stiffed like this by girls all the time)
3) - it releases the photographer from any liability regarding posing mis-haps. For instance, let's say machinegunwilly asks a model to pose in front of a fountain. But then decides it would be a better shot if she jumps up with her feet onto the edge of the fountain and let the water splash her legs during the shot. Model falls, breaks an arm or a leg. She can sue the photographer for putting her in a potentially dangerous situation. (laws vary from state to state regarding negligence, gross negligence, etc... but generally speaking, this is a concern you don't want to deal with). A well written model release should state and be agreed upon UP FRONT, that the model has the CONTROL of the situation and can decline to do any requested poses or actions that may result in an injury, and she accepts full risk for agreeing to do any poses.

These are just 3 VERY IMPORTANT reasons off the top of my head (without even looking at my release) that a model release should ALWAYS be signed first, prior to shooting. I know that the likely response will be "yeah, but then the photographer can get away with taking shots that she didn't agree to, and posting them wherever he wants, etc...." But you have to keep 2 things in mind - the model can still maintain control of the shoot, and can walk away at any time. And 2, people greatly overestimate the possibilities/concerns of posting things where models don't want them. (models often say "but I don't want them ending up on a porn site" - well..... hate to break it to you..... but if you're not shooting porn, a porn site will likely NOT be interested in having your shots on their site anyway!!! - it's common sense!)

Although I don't often get my releases signed in advance and have not stressed this point with the contractors who shoot for us, Joe is 100% correct here, and this is also on the advice of our attorney.

Accidents can and do happen and as a prudent business practice, photographers should protect their own interests.

When rates and terms are agreed to in advance, models sometimes 'forget' how much they were to be paid for a shoot. It's a good idea to have that printed on the release - which is signed at the time the work is to be done - so that you're not re-negotiating fees once the shoot is completed. Sometimes shoots go over the prescribed time, but if you've already signed off on an hourly rate, then it's easy to adjust the check accordingly.

So many people always say they're 'looking out for the models', but who is 'looking out for the photographers'? No one, except ourselves.

Don't tell me about the poor little disadvantaged models that everyone is looking to take advantage of. The fact of the matter is that the photographers have far more at risk on an ongoing basis than just about any model who decides to give the game a try.

[FitIzzy]

I've been lucky so far, I've heard a few awful stories but I've never been in a bad situation. I've done shoot when I left and told myself that I would never shoot with a photog again but it was mostly because it didn't click and there was no chemistry or I didn't like the way he worked (disorganized, doesn't know what he wants, talks too much bitch about other models...)

The same way I would never start a project for a client before having a signed agreement I would never shoot with someone before signing the model release. A contract is there to protect both parties and make things clear. I do however ask for a copy by e-mail before the shoot so that I can read it and modify it if need be. Sometimes I will add that I want the right to have the photog delete some pics that I'm not comfotable with (i.e. my top fell off) but most of the time if you're dealing with a professional he would have deleted them anyways.

I've been lucky, I got to shoot with some of the best and they have thought me so much.

If your gut is screaming get out of there, just leave. There isn't a picture that is worth it and you will probably book another shoot in no time.

[Machinegunnwilly]

Although I don't often get my releases signed in advance and have not stressed this point with the contractors who shoot for us, Joe is 100% correct here, and this is also on the advice of our attorney.

Accidents can and do happen and as a prudent business practice, photographers should protect their own interests.

When rates and terms are agreed to in advance, models sometimes 'forget' how much they were to be paid for a shoot. It's a good idea to have that printed on the release - which is signed at the time the work is to be done - so that you're not re-negotiating fees once the shoot is completed. Sometimes shoots go over the prescribed time, but if you've already signed off on an hourly rate, then it's easy to adjust the check accordingly.

So many people always say they're 'looking out for the models', but who is 'looking out for the photographers'? No one, except ourselves.

Don't tell me about the poor little disadvantaged models that everyone is looking to take advantage of. The fact of the matter is that the photographers have far more at risk on an ongoing basis than just about any model who decides to give the game a try.

The question was asked by a model, what to look out for, not what photographers should do. This is what i would tell any friend, shooting with some unknown photographer.

[ejmcompany@mac.com]

Like Chris Z said in the beginning... Asking to see their work is for sure the first thing I would do... Then references with people from the industry who you know and respect.... This is a pretty small group, and most photographers have worked with enough girls to have established good references... If you go outside this business ( like on model mayhem ) there are great photogs and total creeps... You need to do your homework for sure...
You have to decide what you are taking your pics for first, then find a photographer that will get you what you are looking for... If you want a modeling portfolio, look to see that the person you choose understands how to shoot a comp card... Just because someone can shoot a good pic doesn't mean they understand this process... Don't pay someone for something they don't specialize in....

[jbigfoot]

A couple of things for my two cents...

* I always have the model sign a release up front. This sets expectations so there's no mystery during the shoot.

(An aside to that, I'm going to radically change my release form to make it more restrictive. It got me in trouble about 6 days ago when I did a shoot of a woman I didn't know, as a favor for a friend, and it turns out she's a paid escort who wanted pictures for her solicitation site!)

* On the advice of my lawyer, my high priority now is to incorporate. If anybody gets injured as the result of a shoot I'm doing (with my lights, backdrop, etc.), I can get sued. As a corporation, the corporation gets sued and I'm able to keep my house.

* Model Mayhem is generally a great site, but there are always those few jerks who will ruin it for the rest of us. It's good that the FBB community is so tight-knit that the jungle drums will sound loud & fast when it comes to Claude Taylor, who is known for this type of thing.

[Ellieschirra.com]

Jody, There are lots of crazies out there...LISTEN TO YOU GUT! Don't rush into anything...Ask questions! No hotel bedroom shoots!without checking photog out! Get a card, web address, referals from others that posed for the photog...AND take a friend to be safe....Have the friend bring something to read, ask your friend to stay 25 ft away so you and the photog can work one on one...No interuptions,you friend should understand he/she is there for your saftey...not a consultant. Being a model turned photog I had my share of propositions. REMEMBER, you are a strong woman and you must demand respect....Check out my site ellieschirra.com Be safe and have fun, Ellie

[picsman]

His name is Claude Taylor and I would DEFINITELY NOT RECOMMEND HIM. This is the 4th time I've heard the very same scenario about this guy....def bad news...

[picsman]

Why?

I think that is bad advice. I used to have models sign AFTER the shoot, but then after having lawyers re-do our releases to ensure that we were protected to the fullest extent of the law, I was advised that as photographers, we should ALWAYS have the model sign the release first. Several reasons....

1) - it puts in writing the expectations and purpose/intent of the shoot... who the shots are for, where they will be published, who controls copyright (photographer, model, or joint), and ensures that the model knows that there are limitations to the photographers liability (for instance, the photographer can state the intention to only use them for submissions to Oxygen, or for use on a paysite, etc... but it's NOT the photographers fault if someone else downloads a pic and then plasters it all over the internet - the photographer has NO control over that, and the release of liability MUST be stated up front and made known to the model
2) - it sets forth the terms of the shoot in writing UP FRONT so that there is no misunderstanding in consideration (what I get, what she gets). Example, if you do the shoot first, and THEN have the model sign a release, she may change her mind, and NOT sign it, if she all the sudden decides that the shoot was too much work, so she wants another $100 bucks over her originally agreed upon model fee, or wants more photoshopped full resolution copies than what was originally agreed upon (VERY unprofessional, but I hear of photographers getting stiffed like this by girls all the time)
3) - it releases the photographer from any liability regarding posing mis-haps. For instance, let's say machinegunwilly asks a model to pose in front of a fountain. But then decides it would be a better shot if she jumps up with her feet onto the edge of the fountain and let the water splash her legs during the shot. Model falls, breaks an arm or a leg. She can sue the photographer for putting her in a potentially dangerous situation. (laws vary from state to state regarding negligence, gross negligence, etc... but generally speaking, this is a concern you don't want to deal with). A well written model release should state and be agreed upon UP FRONT, that the model has the CONTROL of the situation and can decline to do any requested poses or actions that may result in an injury, and she accepts full risk for agreeing to do any poses.

These are just 3 VERY IMPORTANT reasons off the top of my head (without even looking at my release) that a model release should ALWAYS be signed first, prior to shooting. I know that the likely response will be "yeah, but then the photographer can get away with taking shots that she didn't agree to, and posting them wherever he wants, etc...." But you have to keep 2 things in mind - the model can still maintain control of the shoot, and can walk away at any time. And 2, people greatly overestimate the possibilities/concerns of posting things where models don't want them. (models often say "but I don't want them ending up on a porn site" - well..... hate to break it to you..... but if you're not shooting porn, a porn site will likely NOT be interested in having your shots on their site anyway!!! - it's common sense!)
Agreed 100% Good job. I would also add that if at all possible the "potential" model should always ask for an advanced copy of the model release AND the rights to use agreement. (in my case I use 2 seperate documents) and READ EVERY WORD IN THE DOCUMENT! It is a legal and binding agreement and will be the "whole" agreement. Don't let it end up.."well you said I'm going to get this"....or "what about the promise you made"....that won't hold up....what you sign is what you get....the operative words are legal and binding....

And for those photographers not having releases....you're a timebomb waiting to explode...

[JLB001]

I always check things out if its someone I do not know or have not heard about. I've even done that on a local news anchor that is doing a story on me tomorrow for a television channel here where we live.

So we always have to check those refences. Same with photographers....ck us out as well. :)

Jody, There are lots of crazies out there...LISTEN TO YOU GUT! Don't rush into anything...Ask questions! No hotel bedroom shoots!without checking photog out! Get a card, web address, referals from others that posed for the photog...AND take a friend to be safe....Have the friend bring something to read, ask your friend to stay 25 ft away so you and the photog can work one on one...No interuptions,you friend should understand he/she is there for your saftey...not a consultant. Being a model turned photog I had my share of propositions. REMEMBER, you are a strong woman and you must demand respect....Check out my site ellieschirra.com Be safe and have fun, Ellie

[jbigfoot]

Same with photographers....ck us out as well. :)

I just got nailed on this a few days ago. My release form was written two years ago, when I was just getting started in the model-photography biz. It's very wide latitude and makes the assumption that the model is only going to use this for MySpace or Model Mayhem. This may have been true then, because the girls I was shooting were at the same bottom rung as I was, but things are different now.

To make a long story short, what I had intended to be pictures for a MM start-up are now being used at the front door of an 'escort's' page! :shocked::yikes::rolf::eek::surprise::oops:

[Becca Staggs]

Hm. Lots of good conversation and tips in here! I have used Model Mayhem and had a great experience, but also avoided some bad ones. Unfortunately there are creepos out there just looking to score with models or get some pics of girls...but there are also many good photogs out there too who are (whether on MM or not) really trying to make this work for them. My first shoot with a photographer from Model Mayhem was a great experience and he left me with these key things to remember:

1) Do you like their portfolio? Is it worth your time?
2) ALWAYS, ALWAYS bring an escort if you haven't worked with this photographer before. I'm sorry but to say that a girl is 'never more comfortable with her husband there' is not always true. Not all girls feel the same and I know personally if I'm shooting with a guy in an empty location, I'd want a friend or my man there for sure! I had one guy tell me that he was 'not into the escort thing' when I said I was bringing my fiance. I wrote him back and canceled the shoot right then and there. If you tell me you are not 'into the escort thing' forget it. You have alterior motives, or at least you lead me to believe you do. What does you 'being into' it have to do with anything? In order to get good pics, the model to be most comfortable, right? The photgrapher may dislike if you bring an escort, but in that case he should lay out some guidelines on how much they should or shouldn't interact and you will be fine. It's their job as well to be professional about it, IMO.
3) CHECK REFERENCES. If you like the work and are still unsure, ask him for a list of references. Any good photographer should be able to have that for you right away. It's like a job interview. Would models he shot want to work with him again? Why or why not? That speaks volumes.

For fun, here are a couple of shots from my last shoot. This was just earlier this month...This shoot was one month post comp...(and you can tell! LOL!!) But this guy was AWESOME and he will be shooting my fiance and I at the end of the summer for fitness shots, since we'll both be dieted down for contests.

Best of luck to any of you ladies out there looking to do shoots in the future...They can be a great time and well worth your while!
Props to the photographers doing it the right way!:awesome:

[JLB001]

Jeff,
You need to get those changes done. What ya waiting for?? ;)

As far as bringing an escort...I prefer to bring one of my girlfriends than my man. My Man doesn't have a serious bone in is body when it comes to these things and I would be laughing too much at his goofy ass. Plus I am more comfortable without him there.

I just got nailed on this a few days ago. My release form was written two years ago, when I was just getting started in the model-photography biz. It's very wide latitude and makes the assumption that the model is only going to use this for MySpace or Model Mayhem. This may have been true then, because the girls I was shooting were at the same bottom rung as I was, but things are different now.

To make a long story short, what I had intended to be pictures for a MM start-up are now being used at the front door of an 'escort's' page! :shocked::yikes::rolf::eek::surprise::oops:

[jbigfoot]

Jeff,
You need to get those changes done. What ya waiting for?? ;)

I'm busy trying to line up portfolio shoots in FLA for the end of July. I have nothing on the horizon...my camera and lenses are at the repair centers for routine maintenance. :nervous::pout: I'll come up with something soon.

As far as bringing an escort...I prefer to bring one of my girlfriends

I prefer that the model bring another female, too. They are invaluable as a second set of eyes to make sure everything looks 'just right'.

[JLB001]

I'm busy trying to line up portfolio shoots in FLA for the end of July. I have nothing on the horizon...my camera and lenses are at the repair centers for routine maintenance. :nervous::pout: I'll come up with something soon.



I prefer that the model bring another female, too. They are invaluable as a second set of eyes to make sure everything looks 'just right'.

Awww....I know how that goes, my son puts his cameras in for maint. too. I'd help ya out on a shoot, but won't be there til Nov. :)

[jbigfoot]

Awww....I know how that goes, my son puts his cameras in for maint. too.

I'm having shutter withdrawal -- I don't know what to do with that itchy trigger finger! :rofl::hyper::nuts2:

I'd help ya out on a shoot, but won't be there til Nov. :)

Thanks! I wish I could be there then. :(

If I had the means to do it, I'd be in TX tomorrow -- I'd love to collab with you for 40+! :camera:

[TomNine]

To make a long story short, what I had intended to be pictures for a MM start-up are now being used at the front door of an 'escort's' page!This might be obvious to everyone else, but I'm not getting what the problem is here.

Does it hurt your business model if she is using the material commercially, and would you equally object if she used the images to promote her services as a trainer or for her membership site?

Or is the problem in associating you with an escort service, and if her MySpace page was devoted to plying this trade you wouldn't want the pics there either?

Or something else entirely? Did any money change hands, and if so what was being paid for?

[JLB001]

If I had the means to do it, I'd be in TX tomorrow -- I'd love to collab with you for 40+! :camera:

Texas is a BIG state. lol what part? I have training with John at 10am in Houston.

[jbigfoot]

This might be obvious to everyone else, but I'm not getting what the problem is here.

TFP is normally used to help somebody who's just starting out; to give 'em a helping hand before they're to the point where they can start paying for a professional service.

Or, as a trade, where the pictures will prove mutually beneficial. She set conditions for my use of the pictures that I'm not willing to meet. (e.g., that they be reduced horizontally 10% to make her look thinner -- she's pretty chunky.) I had no intention of using these pictures because they won't enhance my portfolio so it was a one-way street.

Does it hurt your business model if she is using the material commercially,

Yes. She would pay a web developer $$$ to build her site for an established business, she would pay for somebody to host it, so why shouldn't she have to pay for the services of a photographer?

and would you equally object if she used the images to promote her services as a trainer or for her membership site?

Yes. I would also object if she had used it to promote a real estate business or run for city council.

Or is the problem in associating you with an escort service,

No, I only mentioned that as I did because it's an unusual -- and humorous -- situation that I seem to find myself in every now and then. I didn't watermark the pictures so unless she tells somebody, nobody will know who took them. (But she says her site gets 8000 hits a month and she knows lots of other escorts who may need pictures, so this could be a growth industry for me!)

and if her MySpace page was devoted to plying this trade you wouldn't want the pics there either?

There was a time in my life when I would have taken a holier-than-thou attitude about it. But as I get older, I find that my life holds no moral authority over hers...kind of like the 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' thing.

Besides, if I take nude photographs, then I should be prepared for the possibility that they will not always end up in an art museum, hanging next to works of the Italian Renaissance Masters.

Or something else entirely?

Nope...nothing else.

Did any money change hands, and if so what was being paid for?

No, no money changed hands.

[jbigfoot]

Texas is a BIG state. lol what part?

Anywhere I needed to be! :cool:

I have training with John at 10am in Houston.

That would be 1100 here in Ohio...damn -- I'll still be asleep. Oh, well... :banghead:

[FemFlex]

Last night's shoot was the worst experience of my LIFE.

























I was doing self-portraits. :o

[jbigfoot]

Last night's shoot was the worst experience of my LIFE.

























I was doing self-portraits. :o

So let's see 'em...!

You aren't the first photographer to get a case of jpg shock! Why do you think I use pictures of my dogs for avatars on MySpace and Facebook...? :rofl:

[Jodi_Lane]

Hm. Lots of good conversation and tips in here! I have used Model Mayhem and had a great experience, but also avoided some bad ones. Unfortunately there are creepos out there just looking to score with models or get some pics of girls...

I wanted to comment on what you said just because you mentioned, "Model Mayhem." This isn't a kick to that website in particular but a "clothing designer" who lurks on there. Do you recall, Becca, the clothing designer I hired to make that Star Wars dress for me? Well, he uses that site. I will post the link here so everyone will know to avoid that #W$%^%!!....hehe. I filed a complaint on him finally to the FBI a few days ago, sick of waiting on the BBB! Hope and pray something comes of it...here are that guy's sites....please everyone...shun him...stay away from him!!! Spread the word! He cheated me out of $400 like I owed it to him or something...never started on my dress AND sent me a fake photograph from a site that I regularly visit!!! He's awful.

www.davidjosephdesigns.com (http://www.davidjosephdesigns.com)
http://www.modelmayhem.com/789988
http://myworld.ebay.com/yourfairygodfather/

There you go, there are the creep's sites...I hate him!

[picsman]

TFP is normally used to help somebody who's just starting out; to give 'em a helping hand before they're to the point where they can start paying for a professional service.

Or, as a trade, where the pictures will prove mutually beneficial. She set conditions for my use of the pictures that I'm not willing to meet. (e.g., that they be reduced horizontally 10% to make her look thinner -- she's pretty chunky.) I had no intention of using these pictures because they won't enhance my portfolio so it was a one-way street.



Yes. She would pay a web developer $$$ to build her site for an established business, she would pay for somebody to host it, so why shouldn't she have to pay for the services of a photographer?



Yes. I would also object if she had used it to promote a real estate business or run for city council.



No, I only mentioned that as I did because it's an unusual -- and humorous -- situation that I seem to find myself in every now and then. I didn't watermark the pictures so unless she tells somebody, nobody will know who took them. (But she says her site gets 8000 hits a month and she knows lots of other escorts who may need pictures, so this could be a growth industry for me!)



There was a time in my life when I would have taken a holier-than-thou attitude about it. But as I get older, I find that my life holds no moral authority over hers...kind of like the 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' thing.

Besides, if I take nude photographs, then I should be prepared for the possibility that they will not always end up in an art museum, hanging next to works of the Italian Renaissance Masters.



Nope...nothing else.



No, no money changed hands.
ok...let me get this straight..no money changed hands...but she restricted your use of your pictures to a 10% reduction because she's fat?...WTF?....and you still shot with her?..

Here is why it's so important to have a release AND a rights to use agreement. It stipulates the terms of the shoot, the remuneration i.e. money, copies, TFP....and with a rights to use...lets the model know exactly what she can and can't do with the pictures. As an example, I allow full self promotion. I do NOT allow images to be used commercially by a third party i.e a supplement company WITHOUT a separate PAYED license from me.

[jbigfoot]

ok...let me get this straight..no money changed hands...but she restricted your use of your pictures to a 10% reduction because she's fat?...WTF?....and you still shot with her?..

This is correct. Whether or not she won't let her pictures be used with or without that 10% reduction is a moot point for me because like I said, I never intended to use them on any of my sites, anyway. It was a favor to the model I was shooting that day, who I really did want to work with; so I figured why rock the boat and risk a good shoot with a friend at the expense of a bad one.

Here is why it's so important to have a release AND a rights to use agreement. It stipulates the terms of the shoot, the remuneration i.e. money, copies, TFP....and with a rights to use...lets the model know exactly what she can and can't do with the pictures. As an example, I allow full self promotion. I do NOT allow images to be used commercially by a third party i.e a supplement company WITHOUT a separate PAYED license from me.

...and this is something I'll definitely integrate. Thanks!

I do have more questions, but perhaps another time, once I have a chance to read & digest.

[TomNine]

Jeff,

Thanks for explaining. Between your replies to me and to George I understand the situation, what you hoped to get out of it, and what the problem is. Your stress on the escort service threw me off.

[jbigfoot]

Jeff,

Thanks for explaining.

You're welcome.

Between your replies to me and to George I understand the situation, what you hoped to get out of it, and what the problem is. Your stress on the escort service threw me off.

It was more or less symptomatic of how things have deteriorated recently, and gotten me off-track from where I want to be. Hopefully, things will get better in the next few weeks.

And it started this afternoon: I dropped off a new display at a nutrition supplement store (the picture of the girl by the waterfall -- she was referred to me by this store), and they would like to hang some of my prints on the wall! :awesome:

[picsman]

This is correct. Whether or not she won't let her pictures be used with or without that 10% reduction is a moot point for me because like I said, I never intended to use them on any of my sites, anyway. It was a favor to the model I was shooting that day, who I really did want to work with; so I figured why rock the boat and risk a good shoot with a friend at the expense of a bad one.



...and this is something I'll definitely integrate. Thanks!

I do have more questions, but perhaps another time, once I have a chance to read & digest.
Just saw this...since I can't spell check after it's been up...It's "paid"..not PAYED...lol...I must have been carb depleted...or perhaps I was crown royal saturated....

[jbigfoot]

Well, I saw the pictures on her escort site. She mixed them with her existing ones on a display that goes by pretty quickly. Only the sharpest eyes will catch it, but some of the shots were on a Harley -- and it was (obviously) caught in the alterations. Have you ever seen a motorcycle that's been expanded/contracted by 10%? It's almost comical!:rofl: