Q&A with Trainer - Erik Ledin [Archive]

Erik

10-16-2008, 12:20 AM

Ahhh, pressure!! Only easy ones please. ;)

Ok, let's see, my background.

I have two Bachelors degrees - an honours degree in Kinesiology and a second in Education. My original goal was to become a chiropractor, but I changed my mind. I got interested in the human body in university (switching from the natural sciences to kines) and that moved more into nutrition, physiology, bodybuilding interests, etc. By the time I graduated I was a big fan, soaking up everything I could. While you don't learn any applicable skills in university (at least not related to what we do in this industry), education in biochem, ex phys, nutrition, etc., does lay a foundation for understanding of concepts, being able to read critically, etc. From there it's all about being able to apply your tools, which I guess is where the art of it all comes in. I had already started dabbling in contest prep work with bodybuilders primarily while in school and it built from there.

While nearing the completion of my second degree, two opportunities presented themselves to me - one, an opportunity to go back and do a Masters in Nutrition, and two, a research position at one of the supplement company giants. I didn't see the career advantage in the former, so I chose the latter. But during my interview I was more captivated by the marketing process, so I went that route for a year. That position evolved into my own specifically created position which was as Head Strength & Conditioning Specialist and Nutritionist. I basically designed and oversaw all the diet and training programs for all the before and after campaigns seen for this company in the magazines and was involved in the technical projects related to nutrition. That lasted about 5 years. Great job and great experience in all honesty. That's how I got to meet many of the pros - through their supplement sponsorships.

I ended up basically leaving that position and taking all that experience to do the same thing - yet for myself and I've been doing that full time for a little over 3 years now, and in some capacity for over 10. I still do some consulting with a couple supplement companies in the same context - helping out with their transformations by doing the diet and training programs for them every now and then.

While I don't believe that certifications are the Holy Grail of ... well, anything really, I do have a few myself. I believe what these types of things offer is 'perceived credibility' with the general population - that's about it. That said, mine are

CSCS (by the NSCA)
CPT (by the NSCA)
CK (by the OKA)
CISSN (by the ISSN)

My own personal business has evolved into one focusing primarily on females - about 90% plus of the people I work with, both your general trainee all the way to competitor, are female. That really wasn't my intention out of the starting blocks however. It just happened to evolve that way, primarily because my work has always been based on referrals, and well, females tend to refer more than males do. LOL So at this point, I have gathered a lot of experience with all sorts of different female issues. It's a fascinating job.

That said, I don't have all the answers and I'm always learning myself. Even my own thoughts and belief systems and even methodologies have evolved over the years by being open minded to new things and paying attention to what other people are saying in their areas of expertise, experience, etc. As experience grows, I expect it to continue to evolve.

As you've probably noticed I do like 'talking shop' and can sometimes ruffle a few of the 'traditional feathers' held so tightly in competitive circles, but hey, sometimes it just needs to be said. There's a lot of mythological old-school stuff that's never challenged and just accepted as the only way. I like to rock the boat a bit and show that's not always the case. :D

I know you didn't read that. Talk about boring.

Rebecca Lynn Slatt

10-16-2008, 12:29 AM

WOW that is quite a laundry list of qualifications Erik!

I know I am impressed!

I am excited to hear everyone's questions and read your responses!!!

:respect:

ripitupbaby

10-16-2008, 01:11 AM

I was wondering when this thread would appear. :D

Thanks Erik! :respect:

Siouxcountry

10-16-2008, 01:51 AM

This is going to be one hell of an informative thread! :cool: Thanks, Erik!

Erik has contributed greatly to many threads in our training forum.

The easiest way to access the info he has already shared with us is to go to Advanced search... CLICK HERE (http://www.siouxcountry.com/search.php?f=63)

And write in his user name in the user name box and make sure "posts" is green..... http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c155/coconutsandapples/NEW/posts.png

SBT

10-16-2008, 01:55 AM

I was wondering when this thread would appear. :D

Thanks Erik! :respect:

DITTO!!

Been waiting on it for months lol! ;)

dvsness

10-16-2008, 04:27 AM

Boxers or briefs?

IslandGirl

10-16-2008, 05:10 AM

Boxers or briefs?

or Thongs? ;)

ParadiseCup

10-16-2008, 10:55 AM

or none ? :confused:

SBT

10-16-2008, 01:05 PM

or none ? :confused:
:p that was gonna be my question hahaha!

Siouxcountry

10-16-2008, 02:17 PM

Erik,

Currently many competitors eat 6-8 meals a day. Is so many meals optimal?

Rainy

10-16-2008, 03:01 PM

This thread is just brilliant. :awesome:

I'm sure most people will learn something new from Erik's approach to training and nutrition.
I've been so lucky to work with Erik for a few months now and he's a bottomless source of information.

Erik

10-16-2008, 03:06 PM

Boxers or briefs?

or Thongs? ;)

or none ? :confused:

:p that was gonna be my question hahaha!

Refer back to my first response - only easy questions please. :p

Jennie

10-16-2008, 03:10 PM

Sweet :respect:

KP DIVA

10-16-2008, 03:36 PM

Refer back to my first response - only easy questions please. :p

LOL!! I look forward to reading this thread!!!! Nothing but great info!

kaytebugg00

10-16-2008, 03:36 PM

I was wondering. for contest prep with Figure. How do you feel about fat loading the week/day of? Thanks again.

kayte

LAT

10-16-2008, 03:43 PM

Hi Eric - Thank you so much for volunteering will this thread! Competed along side some of your girls in Michigan....they beat me everytime!!! lol
With that being said my question to you is Water Consumption, at 116lb
5'5" and lift heavy 4/5 days a week with light cardio say 2/3 days a week.....Should I be striving for a certain amount of water each day?

Thank you,

Lisa Theisen
NPC Figure Competitor, Michigan

Meechel

10-16-2008, 04:18 PM

Erik,

Can you give some insight as to how your preps do not include double cardio or 6 workouts a week and still gets great results with your clients on stage?

(disclaimer: as most know I worked with Erik for 10 months so I might ask questions just so others will get the knowledge of the answers that some might not think to ask and that I already know the answer....and I plan on working with him again for my show Oct 2009)

ripitupbaby

10-16-2008, 04:48 PM

Erik,

What percentage of FBBs do you train/prep versus figure/fitness? Got any FBBs out there on the National scene right now who you are working with?

:)

KP DIVA

10-16-2008, 04:50 PM

IslandGirl

10-16-2008, 05:25 PM

Refer back to my first response - only easy questions please. :p

lol! Aww....poo! :(

Noel Clark

10-16-2008, 05:57 PM

This will be a good thread!:awesome:

FitFighter

10-16-2008, 06:05 PM

I was just thinking we needed a thread like this! I can't wait - I have so many questions. Let me think......:D This is going to be great. Wow, I am very impressed with your backround.

Shortie

10-16-2008, 06:11 PM

Hi Erik what do you normally recommend to your client's during the final week of prep?

Anca

10-16-2008, 07:42 PM

:waving: Coach! This is gonna be a great thread!
Thanks for an awesome, fun prep! :yourock: Looking forward to my last show of the season this Saturday at the Border States! :awesome1:

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:25 PM

Erik,

Currently many competitors eat 6-8 meals a day. Is so many meals optimal?

Optimal for what?

This tends to be one of those long held to beliefs that says that the more often you eat, the more fired up your metabolism is. In that context, no, it's not.

Metabolism is determined by the total energy intake, not by how many meals you get it in.

2000 in 5 meals vs 2000 in 8 meals is still 2000 calories and your body still has to spend the energy to process that same 2000 calories.

Myth! Myth! Myth! (and one with much research to show it - 24-hr indirect calorimetry)

The idea stems from something called the Thermic Effect of Food (one part of total metabolism), which is basically the energy cost to digest incoming energy. (differs for the various macronutrients). So the idea is that the more often you eat, the more TEF goes up and the more metabolism goes up. The problem with this is that it's a bit of a misrepresentation as TEF is actually correlated with the amount of calories in the meal, and therefore total calories at the end of the day.

Rather, it seems that an inconsistent meal frequency is what has potential negative effects.

So from a direct fat-loss standpoint, there isn't really an advantage to 8 meals vs say 4-5. There are however other advantages you could argue for:

More stable blood sugar
Possible health benefits
Control of hunger
Calories are very high (easier to get them in with more feedings rather than less)

And subsequently, dietary compliance, which is the key to any diet.

There's no disadvantage to a high meal frequency that I can think of, so if you prefer it, stick with it. If you find it hard, you can cut back on the meal number and just make your meals a bit bigger.

(Note - that doesn't mean all your calories in one meal per day LOL)

I still eat 6x/day and I use 5-6/day with clients as well. The only time I go lower is if they complain that they can't eat that often.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:27 PM

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:36 PM

I was wondering. for contest prep with Figure. How do you feel about fat loading the week/day of? Thanks again.

kayte

How do I feel about it? More often than not, it's my preference. I don't like the traditional carb load - too hit and miss, unless it's been well practiced. That competitors sometimes get it right and sometimes get it wrong (the same competitor) supports that as well.

Beyond that, it's really going to depend on the person's body and what you've learned about it - how they respond to various things, what kind of condition they're in, what kind of look they're hoping for the day of, etc.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:42 PM

Hi Eric -

You spelled my name wrong, so I can't answer your question. Did Sioux put you up to that? He spells my name wrong more than he does it right.

Thank you so much for volunteering will this thread! Competed along side some of your girls in Michigan....they beat me everytime!!! lol

Oops.

With that being said my question to you is Water Consumption, at 116lb
5'5" and lift heavy 4/5 days a week with light cardio say 2/3 days a week.....Should I be striving for a certain amount of water each day?

Just as an every day thing? More water in tends to equal more water out. Most who up their water tend to find they have less issues with water retention and weight fluctuations. (aldosterone and ADH are blunted, etc).

Assuming normal activity, 3-4 liters is probably more than enough.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:43 PM

Erik,

Can you give some insight as to how your preps do not include double cardio or 6 workouts a week and still gets great results with your clients on stage?

I'll come back to this.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:43 PM

Erik,

What percentage of FBBs do you train/prep versus figure/fitness? Got any FBBs out there on the National scene right now who you are working with?

:)

No FBB at National level.

Mostly figure/fitness.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:45 PM

lol! Aww....poo! :(

There were four options - the correct answer was in there. :D

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:46 PM

Hi Erik what do you normally recommend to your client's during the final week of prep?

Can't really answer that. Depends on the person. Lots of variables.

It doesn't often include a traditional 3-day carb load though.

Erik

10-16-2008, 08:47 PM

:waving: Coach! This is gonna be a great thread!
Thanks for an awesome, fun prep! :yourock: Looking forward to my last show of the season this Saturday at the Border States! :awesome1:

I'm glad it's your last show too. :LOLOL:

ISABELLE TURELL

10-16-2008, 09:41 PM

Erik has kindly agreed to answer our questions in his own thread!

Erik has an immense amount of knowledge in the field of nutrition, so take advantage of this opportunity and post any questions for him here.

Thanks, Erik!

I'll ask the first question :D

Can you describe your background and training for us?

Great thread Badgergrl:respect:. Erik definitly knows what hes talking about. Its nice when you have a trainer that can share, explain and answer questions for us. Everyone tends to have a price now a days for information. Big props to you Erik for being so helpful to us athletes in answering our questions.

I just want to say a HUGE "THANK YOU" for so much support

Suzanne

10-16-2008, 09:41 PM

Alot of your clients have very little cardio in prep compared to alot of competitors How do you achieve this without calories getting to low?

For example my maintenance cals are about 2200 with fairly large cheat meal once a week. If i didn't do alot of cardio by the end of prep i would be at about 500 cals. With different approaches with food and cardio and trainers i have NEVER lost more than a pound a week during prep and most times i got up the the 2hour cardio mark. Most weeks was 1/2 lb or less even before the cardio got high

alwaysfit

10-16-2008, 09:42 PM

I've heard alot of great things about you! Have you written any books about training and/or nutrition? I'm not so interested in contest prep as in general lifestyle. Do you work with non-competitors?

Erik

10-16-2008, 09:50 PM

Alot of your clients have very little cardio in prep compared to alot of competitors How do you achieve this without calories getting to low?

I have said this in much more blunt terms in the past, but I firmly believe that no one HAS to do the quantity of cardio so commonly seen in competitive circles. I've literally never had anyone do it. Nor will I ever do it. I've also taken people who believed this was the only way they could get in shape, asked them to trust me, and showed them another way. They won't go back.

I feel if, and I don't say this to step on anyone's toes, someone feels they have to do this, that something is not optimized in the diet if that volume of cardio is all that gets results. That's just my opinion.

Take that example we saw the other week of Jenny doing 4 hours/day on 900 calories. Would one say that worked? I'd say it sure doesn't seem like it. 28 hours and no food to drop how much fat per week? Given a pound of fat is 3500 calories, that doesn't seem like it worked to me.

I also really don't like the cardio because the majority of the huge cardio proponents suffer the worst rebounds post-contest. It's like their bodies are programmed for fat storage once the calories become available again.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against cardio - I am against what is commonly used in prep circles - hours upon hours and doubles after doubles.

For example my maintenance cals are about 2200 with fairly large cheat meal once a week.

2200 at what bodyweight?

If i didn't do alot of cardio by the end of prep i would be at about 500 cals.

That almost seems like a contradiction if I'm interpreting that properly.

If you have a high maintenance, why would you have to drop cals extremely low if not for the high volume cardio?

As for the pound/week, I don't like using scale weight as the sole barometer of progress since fat loss isn't generally a linear phenomenon. And as you get closer and closer and bodyfat is lower and lower, dropping a pound a week can even be too much since fat loss gets progressively slower/harder the less you have remaining on your body.

Erik

10-16-2008, 09:53 PM

I've heard alot of great things about you! Have you written any books about training and/or nutrition?

I have been meaning to do something like this for a couple years - but I never get around to it. Primarily because I really don't enjoy writing. :LOLOL:

And I'm pretty busy.

One day I hope.

I'm not so interested in contest prep as in general lifestyle. Do you work with non-competitors?

Yes, many. :)

Erik

10-16-2008, 09:54 PM

Great thread Badgergrl:respect:. Erik definitly knows what hes talking about. Its nice when you have a trainer that can share, explain and answer questions for us. Everyone tends to have a price now a days for information. Big props to you Erik for being so helpful to us athletes in answering our questions.

I just want to say a HUGE "THANK YOU" for so much support

Thank you very much. :)

Suzanne

10-16-2008, 10:14 PM

I have said this in much more blunt terms in the past, but I firmly believe that no one HAS to do the quantity of cardio so commonly seen in competitive circles. I've literally never had anyone do it. Nor will I ever do it. I've also taken people who believed this was the only way they could get in shape, asked them to trust me, and showed them another way. They won't go back.

I feel if, and I don't say this to step on anyone's toes, someone feels they have to do this, that something is not optimized in the diet if that volume of cardio is all that gets results. That's just my opinion.

Take that example we saw the other week of Jenny doing 4 hours/day on 900 calories. Would one say that worked? I'd say it sure doesn't seem like it. 28 hours and no food to drop how much fat per week? Given a pound of fat is 3500 calories, that doesn't seem like it worked to me.

I also really don't like the cardio because the majority of the huge cardio proponents suffer the worst rebounds post-contest. It's like their bodies are programmed for fat storage once the calories become available again.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against cardio - I am against what is commonly used in prep circles - hours upon hours and doubles after doubles.

2200 at what bodyweight?

That almost seems like a contradiction if I'm interpreting that properly.

If you have a high maintenance, why would you have to drop cals extremely low if not for the high volume cardio?

As for the pound/week, I don't like using scale weight as the sole barometer of progress since fat loss isn't generally a linear phenomenon. And as you get closer and closer and bodyfat is lower and lower, dropping a pound a week can even be too much since fat loss gets progressively slower/harder the less you have remaining on your body.

at 5'1" 141.9 lbs i am eating 2200 current pics here bottom of page
http://www.siouxcountry.com/showthread.php?t=1024&page=25

what i meant was if i drop some cals to start prep then plateau eventually it would be down to almost no cals

I went from 2700 daily cals last summer to 2000 daily added 30 min of cardio and dropped no scale weight or inches for 4 weeks. I didnt' even drop the normal water people drop when they clean up their diets.

now part of this could be i am still messed up from previous trainer my current trainer has been working on upping my cals. the previous trainer had me at 1500 off season with 70 min cardio i told him i could not do all that carido so then 1350 with 35 min cardio 6 days. Any way we are working on fixing all that which is why the LONG offseason

Even when i first started working out ( i was fat 180ish) it took forever to dropand i was very careful o not do any overly low calories. I started by just getting rid of crap i was eat and working out regularly but took over 4 years to drop 60 lbs

Erik

10-16-2008, 10:19 PM

at 5'1" 141.9 lbs i am eating 2200

Really healthy maintenance actually - 15.5 x TBW.

what i meant was if i drop some cals to start prep then plateau eventually it would be down to almost no cals

See, I guess this is just where I disagree. There are other strategies that are effective. It doesn't just have to be a progressive drop after drop after drop in calories (some drop is necessary given calories scale mostly with bodyweight), and increase after increase after increase in cardio.

I'm not saying it doesn't work - there's enough competitor success to argue that. I'm just saying it's not the only way and I'll never use it with anyone I work with. I prefer not to have people living in the gym for one and the post-contest rebound and metabolic issues concern me.

I went from 2700 daily cals last summer to 2000 daily added 30 min of cardio and dropped no scale weight or inches for 4 weeks. I didnt' even drop the normal water people drop when they clean up their diets.

But at what weight? 2700 to 2000 might be a significant reduction, but if 2000 doesn't have you in a reasonable deficit, you're not going to drop body fat.

now part of this could be i am still messed up from previous trainer my current trainer has been working on upping my cals. the previous trainer had me at 1500 off season with 70 min cardio i told him i could not do all that carido so then 1350 with 35 min cardio 6 days. Any way we are working on fixing all that which is why the LONG offseason

1. Sheesh. Doesn't sound like much of an offseason to me.

2. No doubt that those variables uncouple the normal equation.

I've had a lot of 'metabolic repair' clients, so I understand what you're saying.

FitFighter

10-16-2008, 10:43 PM

Erik

10-16-2008, 10:54 PM

Hi Erik- can I take an alleve or ibuprophen on show day? I'm fitness and not looking forward to the pounding on a hard wood floor. I'm wondering if it will cause me to retain water? Also, can I continue to take my other supplements like St. John's Wort and Hoodia? Thanks!

NSAIDs can cause water retention. I can't say how acute it is though, as I honestly don't know. But the potential is definitely there.

Why do you take hoodia? (not a believer).

Not sure what the St. John's Wort would be contraindicated with (admittedly I don't know everything there is to know about it), so I'd imagine it'd be fine.

FitFighter

10-16-2008, 11:01 PM

NSAIDs can cause water retention. I can't say how acute it is though, as I honestly don't know. But the potential is definitely there.

Why do you take hoodia? (not a believer).

Not sure what the St. John's Wort would be contraindicated with (admittedly I don't know everything there is to know about it), so I'd imagine it'd be fine.

Thanks, Hoodia to curb my appetite. Very - very hungry... all the time.

Another question from a previous discussion. If weight loss occurs due to a calorie deficit and it does not matter what the macronutrient is- i.e. you stated something like excess protein is just basically expensive carbohydrate. OK- so what I am getting at is, IF a your protein requirements are met, you can eat say 100 cals of grilled chicken or 100 cals of oatmeal or 100 cals of table sugar- yet, as long as you are in a calorie deficit you will still lose weight? The insulin response from eating oats or table sugar would have no impact on fat loss (or gain)??

LAT

10-16-2008, 11:10 PM

So sorry Erik about the spelling error! Really appreciate your answer to my question...not planning on competing again anytime soon just wanting to make sure I'm get enough in if I am working hard in the gym.

ErinFL

10-16-2008, 11:58 PM

Given that we're all delicate and unique snowflakes and different...
and given that scale weight encompasses much more that fat...
What would you consider a healthy and appropriate range for weight regain post contest-
-at 2 weeks-
-at 4 weeks-
and and when do you think the metabolic slowdown from dieting reverses back to normal, as in being able to find a relative maintenance?

Meechel

10-17-2008, 12:17 AM

I've heard alot of great things about you! Have you written any books about training and/or nutrition? I'm not so interested in contest prep as in general lifestyle. Do you work with non-competitors?

You could see my before and current pics in the fatty patty thread under journals and I am not a competitor.......yet :waving:

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 12:53 AM

Erik your thoughts please...

A very good friend of mine was diagnosed with hypothyroidism. I also had a very large suspicion that her adrenals were burned out (excess stim use). The initial doctor told me that there was no way her adrenals were burnt out and that adrenal crisis would put have put her in the hospital in serious condition. I claimed BS and she went to another doctor. She was eventually given armour thyroid (after synthroid did not work) but the adrenals were never addressed. She finally ended up with a naturopath who ONLY treated her adrenals and made her get off thyroid meds. It has been a few months now and the adrenals are responding but NO thyroid activity. He has also limited her to pro/veg with no macro or cal mins or maxs.

Your thoughts on this situation? Should she get back on the armour?

Thanks

Erik

10-17-2008, 01:15 AM

Thanks, Hoodia to curb my appetite. Very - very hungry... all the time.

And you feel it works for you?

Another question from a previous discussion. If weight loss occurs due to a calorie deficit and it does not matter what the macronutrient

Just to make sure we're on the same page here - calories determine weight loss primarily yes.

Composition of weight loss is more influenced by macronutrients - so they do matter. (ie. adequate protein to spare LBM losses, adequate EFA intake, and adequate energy-providing nutrients - either fats, carbs or some combo of both)

is- i.e. you stated something like excess protein is just basically expensive carbohydrate.

After a point yes. Calories modulate protein requirements, so as calories and other protein-sparing nutrients go down, protein requirements go up. When calories and other protein-sparing nutrients go up (think off season), protein requirements actually go down.

OK- so what I am getting at is, IF a your protein requirements are met, you can eat say 100 cals of grilled chicken or 100 cals of oatmeal or 100 cals of table sugar- yet, as long as you are in a calorie deficit you will still lose weight?

Technically yes, believe it or not. You have a shortage of energy. The net effect at the end of the day is a loss.

The insulin response from eating oats or table sugar would have no impact on fat loss (or gain)??

Insulin (by way of its stimulatory effect on lipoprotein lipase or its inhibitory effect on hormone sensitive lipase) is not the only determinant of fat loss, or rather fat gain/halting fat loss. There are other players, but the most important factor is that there is no predisposition to net fat gain in a caloric deficit - regardless of insulin. (fat storage due to any meal is less than fat breakdown due to the caloric deficit at the end of the day).

If there were, people who eat things like rice cakes, white potatoes, etc., which are rapidly digesting, high GI/II carbs (so they behave like 'sugar') would never get in shape.

The insulin response to 25g carbs from table sugar might certainly be different from the insulin response to 25g carbs from oatmeal - but in the end, it's 25g carbs and 100 calories. If we used straight dextrose (an even higher GI/II carb) as an example to compare to oatmeal instead of table sugar (lower due to the fact it's half fructose) it still all ends up as 25g of glucose in the blood once digestion has had its way with it.

The issue though is that when calories are low, you're not getting much nutrition or satiety for that matter from something like sugar, compared to something like oatmeal or potatoes (which rank at the top of the Satiety Index).

Erik

10-17-2008, 01:20 AM

Given that we're all delicate and unique snowflakes and different...
and given that scale weight encompasses much more that fat...
What would you consider a healthy and appropriate range for weight regain post contest-
-at 2 weeks-
-at 4 weeks-

It's sort of goal dependent. What are the goals post-contest? Transition into a full offseason? Tread the maintenance line?

and and when do you think the metabolic slowdown from dieting reverses back to normal, as in being able to find a relative maintenance?

Depends on

1. How long you've been dieting

2. How severe you've been dieting (so what methodolgy - you're in good hands with Jen obviously)

3. How far removed you are from your natural set/settling points.

The greater each of those are, the longer I feel it will take.

That said, a systematic increase in calories and then two weeks at an assumed maintenance with at least 100-150g carbs (to help with thyroid function) can do wonders.

SBT

10-17-2008, 01:22 AM

No FBB at National level.

Mostly figure/fitness.

Is that a choice of yours, or you just haven't been contacted by any yet? I am assuming you take on any/all types of clients that you have time for?

Badgergrl

10-17-2008, 02:00 AM

I like the new avi.
We can add that to your list of qualifications. :respect:

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:00 AM

Erik your thoughts please...

A very good friend of mine was diagnosed with hypothyroidism.

What'd they test? TSH and Total T4? Or did they do that PLUS Free T3, Free T4 and ferritin?

I also had a very large suspicion that her adrenals were burned out (excess stim use).

As in adrenal fatigue? There's actually no scientific studies supporting this specific concept as far as I know. It's not accepted in the medical field, but more so in the alternative health field.

I'm not sure I'd go along with 'burnout' but there might be some type of dysfunction there. There are real conditions like Cushings and Addison's but these are clearly diagnosable.

This is likely, IMO at least, an issue of overall systemic stress. Has she taken any time off training?

What kind of programming? (ie. diet and training) That could result in apparent fatigue. (see stress point)

She finally ended up with a naturopath who ONLY treated her adrenals and made her get off thyroid meds. It has been a few months now and the adrenals are responding but NO thyroid activity. He has also limited her to pro/veg with no macro or cal mins or maxs.

Your thoughts on this situation? Should she get back on the armour?

Thanks

How do they know the adrenals are responding? The naturopath said they were not producing anything? :confused:

Has she had updated thyroid tests? Additional helpful tests are the antibodies tests, called TPO and AB. Those rule out/or in autoimmune disorders of the thyroid

And no carbs?

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:08 AM

Is that a choice of yours, or you just haven't been contacted by any yet? I am assuming you take on any/all types of clients that you have time for?

National FBB don't like me. :LOLOL:

Nah, just hasn't materialized in that direction, yet.

I take on clients if I feel we're a good match; that's not everyone.

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 02:09 AM

Everything was tested, T4, T3, and TSH.

As far as how they know that the adrenals are responding, apparently he has his ways...i have not been with her to this particular specialist so I really am at no liberty to say.

She does have a family history of thyroid issues, don't know if that helps?

This is one area where I have no specialization so any advice is greatly appreciated!

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:11 AM

Everything was tested, T4, T3, and TSH.

Yes, but the TOTAL values or the FREE values? BIG, BIG difference.

As far as how they know that the adrenals are responding, apparently he has his ways...i have not been with her to this particular specialist so I really am at no liberty to say.

That sounds a little shady to me ...

She does have a family history of thyroid issues, don't know if that helps?

Predisposition there potentially.

Has she had time off from training?

I don't get the no carbs thing when carbs help thyroid activity.

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:11 AM

I like the new avi.
We can add that to your list of qualifications. :respect:

:D :D :D

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 02:16 AM

Yes, but the TOTAL values or the FREE values? BIG, BIG difference.

That sounds a little shady to me ...

Predisposition there potentially.

Has she had time off from training?

I don't get the no carbs thing when carbs help thyroid activity.

That was my point exactly!!!

The adrenal "upregulation" from what i can understand is her beginning to feel more energized. The ideology behind all of this is that the adrenals are bringing down the thyroid. So in theory, if the adrenals begin fucntioning again then the thyroid will begin as well. From a nutrition standpoint, I just dont see her thyroid even beginning to function at less than 700cals a day.

She has had close to 3 months off training now.

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 02:16 AM

I like the new avi.
We can add that to your list of qualifications. :respect:

AGREED!!! looking HUGE bro!!!

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:19 AM

That was my point exactly!!!

The adrenal "upregulation" from what i can understand is her beginning to feel more energized. The ideology behind all of this is that the adrenals are bringing down the thyroid. So in theory, if the adrenals begin fucntioning again then the thyroid will begin as well. From a nutrition standpoint, I just dont see her thyroid even beginning to function at less than 700cals a day.

She has had close to 3 months off training now.

The time off probably has a lot to do with her feeling more energized - remove stressors, body recovers, you feel better.

None of all this alternative adrenal fatigue hooplah.

Wait, she's eating 700 calories?

Find out about the TOTAL vs FREE tests - that's very important.

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 02:22 AM

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:24 AM

I cant verify the number 700, but i can verify that it was strictly protein and veggies, with no specific meal frequency or totals.

I will try to get those numbers and tests tomorow!

THANK YOU! :respect:

That's retarded. That's just making it worse.

And that also reinforces the other shady stuff.

She needs calories. If it's a thyroid issue not in the setting of a nonthyroidal illness without preexisting hypothalamic-pituitary and thyroid gland dysfunction - ie euthyroid sick syndrome - SHE NEEDS CALORIES.

ErinFL

10-17-2008, 10:00 AM

It's sort of goal dependent. What are the goals post-contest? Transition into a full offseason? Tread the maintenance line?

Depends on

1. How long you've been dieting

2. How severe you've been dieting (so what methodolgy - you're in good hands with Jen obviously)

3. How far removed you are from your natural set/settling points.

The greater each of those are, the longer I feel it will take.

That said, a systematic increase in calories and then two weeks at an assumed maintenance with at least 100-150g carbs (to help with thyroid function) can do wonders.

Goals post contest:
-
Stay within a few weeks diet of photoshoot condiiton, do some leg specializations, no full on bulk
-Dieting 14 weeks total, smartly as you know

And I realize it's individual, was just thinking about a general range.:popcorn:

FitFighter

10-17-2008, 12:53 PM

Thanks Erik- Hoodia worked at first, but not really working now. Do you recommend something else?

As for adrenal burnout, I thought I had the same thing. I read all this stuff on the internet and had all the 'symptoms', but stressing over it, just made my sympotms worse. I went to two MDs and an endocrinologist and you are right, the medical community will not recognize the condition. I truly did not have Addisons or Crushings syndrome and the doc stated if I was in adrenal fatigue, my potassium would be high (which it wasn't). I did have elevated LFTs, but I don't take any stims. In the end, I think it was over training/ over reaching and too much stress in my life. I have very poor response to stress, both mental and physical.

Anyway, Erik you are very vague in your answers about what to change if you are not seeing results. I am 4 weeks out from my show and have been stalled for many weeks now. If I don't lower calories, which I really don't want to do, or increase my cardio- what is left to do?

Thanks in advance- FF.

Erik

10-17-2008, 01:12 PM

Goals post contest:
-
Stay within a few weeks diet of photoshoot condiiton, do some leg specializations, no full on bulk
-Dieting 14 weeks total, smartly as you know

And I realize it's individual, was just thinking about a general range.:popcorn:

Hmm - the thing is, specializations tend to not work without a 'full on bulk' mode (speaking from a dietary standpoint). It ends up being (and especially in the case of a leg one) some hellacious training - with little end result.

So if that's your plan, I think to make it worth it's while you're going to have to really eat.

As for the weight rebound, as I mentioned in my opinion on the other thread, water rebound is normal and scales with what you did in the days leading up to it. It's the fat gain rebound that has to be controlled. So if you're comparing your weight from a week out, before any manipulation to a couple weeks post-contest, it probably isn't going to be more than about 5lbs up if you're still in charge of things. A little might be fat, but there's going to be refilling of glycogen, etc.

Speaking of a transition, and once a period at maintenance has passed, weight should only change slowly if you're trying to stay in charge of bodyfat. Muscle gain in natural women is a slow process, and one that gets slower every year, so in that context, if someone is going up say 2lbs/week, chances are your muscle-to=fat-gain ratio isn't very good.

Erik

10-17-2008, 01:17 PM

Thanks Erik- Hoodia worked at first, but not really working now. Do you recommend something else?

Supplement wise? EC is quite anorectic, but not everyone likes stimulants. Other than that, some have had good appetite controlling help from glucomannan powder (not caps, unless you're opening them).

I think it was over training/ over reaching and too much stress in my life. I have very poor response to stress, both mental and physical.

Exactly.

Anyway, Erik you are very vague in your answers about what to change if you are not seeing results.

Where was that question? :confused:

I am 4 weeks out from my show and have been stalled for many weeks now. If I don't lower calories, which I really don't want to do, or increase my cardio- what is left to do?

Thanks in advance- FF.

Bodyweight, caloric intake and macro totals again please?

FitFighter

10-17-2008, 02:01 PM

Supplement wise? EC is quite anorectic, but not everyone likes stimulants. Other than that, some have had good appetite controlling help from glucomannan powder (not caps, unless you're opening them).

Bodyweight, caloric intake and macro totals again please?

Can't take EC- sensative to most stimulants, I need something mild.

Bodyweight is 119.0 lbs. Height 5'1. About 1700 calories a day. I eat around 200 grams Protein, 120 grams Carbs, 20 grams Fat. Cardio is 30 mins am, 30 mins walk at lunch and 20-30 mins SS cardio if lifting day. If not lifting day then, 45-55 mins cardio. I just started some HIIT this week. Sat is 1 hour gymnastics practice, Sun is light walking. Thanks!

DanielleA

10-17-2008, 02:08 PM

Hi Erik. Without giving away too much, can you give us an example of an off-season diet you would give to a competitor who is looking to put on a few pounds of muscle, but still stay fairly lean? (if you could list foods that would be great, don't necessarily need measurements). Looking for more of a breakdown of meals in a day, rather than just a list of foods.
If you want an example I will use myself...5'2.5", offseason 120-125lbs, contest 110lbs (pre-peak week), 28 yrs old.
By reading through this thread I'm going to assume that cardio would be at a minimal, is that correct?
Thanks!

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:22 PM

Bodyweight is 119.0 lbs. Height 5'1. About 1700 calories a day. I eat around 200 grams Protein, 120 grams Carbs, 20 grams Fat. Cardio is 30 mins am, 30 mins walk at lunch and 20-30 mins SS cardio if lifting day. If not lifting day then, 45-55 mins cardio. I just started some HIIT this week. Sat is 1 hour gymnastics practice, Sun is light walking. Thanks!

Wow!

At this close to your show, I really don't want to say too much because it's going to be very, very different than what you're doing.

1700 at 119 is 14.3x TBW - I'd be surprised if you weren't stalling out at that caloric intake given you're so light. That's nearly maintenance for most people. If you can drop on 14x BW that's pretty impressive.

You're also already likely aware I'm not a proponent of double (never mind triple) cardio sessions.

Do you get ANY days off?

Be careful with the intervals once you're very lean. Recovery comes at a premium as bodyfat gets lower, recuperative resources are scarcer, etc.

From my vantage point, you have to drop cals. The only other way to magnify your deficit is to do more cardio in your case and that potentiates the post-contest rebound (in my opinion).

My first answer was going to be the inclusion of structured refeeds, but at your caloric intake, I'm not sure they're warranted.

Erik

10-17-2008, 02:50 PM

Hi Danielle,

Hi Erik. Without giving away too much, can you give us an example of an off-season diet you would give to a competitor who is looking to put on a few pounds of muscle, but still stay fairly lean?

This isn't really so much an issue of food type as it about food amount, so in that context, there is no set diet.

We set calories and build on them based on outcome. That's the first determinant of any gain - there has to be sufficient calories to not only support the growth of new muscle, but the maintenance of that new muscle.

Calories, carbs and fats also modulate protein requirements, so in an offseason, where these are elevated, protein requirements actually decrease (relative to contest dieting).

Still though, somewhere in the 1-1.25g/lb is fine for a natural athlete. You can up it if you're assisted as net protein accretion tends to be higher with anabolics.

You also have to recognize the fact that you have to accept at least some fat gain. Those who try to avoid it - end up looking the same, year in and year out. No one's partitioning ability is so good that their bodies direct all calories over maintenance to muscle. Some ends up as fat.

I really don't care what specific foods are being eaten - but then again, I assume that people are trying to adopt lifestyle eating habits as opposed to just 'diet mode' eating habits as well.

(if you could list foods that would be great, don't necessarily need measurements). Looking for more of a breakdown of meals in a day, rather than just a list of foods.

Hard to do - like I said, so much can be worked into your plan. You don't have to be limited to 6 foods. You just have to have it all total up - protein, carbs, fats and calories to where you want it to.

So you start with caloric and macronutrient goals and then work backwards.

If you want an example I will use myself...5'2.5", offseason 120-125lbs, contest 110lbs (pre-peak week), 28 yrs old.

An assumed maintenance would be somewhere in the 1700-1800 (at 120), all else being equal and 'normal'. Start there and then build on it based on what's happening with your body. Add 10%, eat there for two weeks, reassess. No upward climb? Add another 10%. Too much upward climb for the timeline? Scale it back a bit. Simple outcome-based adjustments.

I've written 4 blog posts on this topic if you want to read them (still more to go before I'm done with that topic though)

Part 1 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/09/18/bulking-questions-and-answers/)
Part 2 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/09/24/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-2/)
Part 3 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/10/03/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-3/)
Part 4 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/10/13/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-4/)

By reading through this thread I'm going to assume that cardio would be at a minimal, is that correct?
Thanks!

Some SS is ok, but recognize it's a caloric sink you have to overcome with more food.

No intervals

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 02:55 PM

Erik

Interesting you bring up the topic of refeeds, they seem to be popular in many diets these days (Skiploading, CKD, etc..). When you say structured refeeds, can you give an example. This would probably have to assume that she was too low on cals, maybe in the 13-1400 range.

Thanks

dvsness

10-17-2008, 02:55 PM

Great input here. Thanks for your time.

DanielleA

10-17-2008, 04:04 PM

Great input here. Thanks for your time.

Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I'm also happy to hear that you believe one has to have SOME bodyfat in order to grow. That's reassuring, and I think it's something many competitors need to hear! :)

Suzanne

10-17-2008, 04:55 PM

Thanks erik your posts and blog posts are very informative

and i love hearing about less cardio since i HATE every second of it

KP DIVA

10-17-2008, 04:59 PM

Thanks erik your posts and blog posts are very informative

and i love hearing about less cardio since i HATE every second of it

I agree....especially since I'm soooo guilty of doing 3-1hr cardio sessions a day!!!!

FitFighter

10-17-2008, 05:13 PM

Wow!

At this close to your show, I really don't want to say too much because it's going to be very, very different than what you're doing.

1700 at 119 is 14.3x TBW - I'd be surprised if you weren't stalling out at that caloric intake given you're so light. That's nearly maintenance for most people. If you can drop on 14x BW that's pretty impressive.

You're also already likely aware I'm not a proponent of double (never mind triple) cardio sessions.

Do you get ANY days off?

Be careful with the intervals once you're very lean. Recovery comes at a premium as bodyfat gets lower, recuperative resources are scarcer, etc.

From my vantage point, you have to drop cals. The only other way to magnify your deficit is to do more cardio in your case and that potentiates the post-contest rebound (in my opinion).

My first answer was going to be the inclusion of structured refeeds, but at your caloric intake, I'm not sure they're warranted.

Thanks for the input Erik. I'm only doing ss cardio in the am (with BCAAs) and light walking during lunch. I just incorported HIIT this week because I am fitness and need to get conditioned for my routine. As for my calories, I think I over-estimated as the numbers do not add up. I'm probably more like 1400-1500 cals a day.

So, you are suggesting that I decrease my calories. What x BW??? And also I'm not that 'light' considering I'm only 5'1 and I haven't done calipers, but I'd say my bf is around 18%?? Thanks again. I'd post pics if I were brave, but am not that brave :D

Rebecca Lynn Slatt

10-17-2008, 05:16 PM

How does anyone have time for 3 cardio sessions per day?

I am assuming you all WORK at gyms? :confused:

Weighing and cooking food for my husband and myself takes up more time than my training and cardio.

I am not a fan of double or triple cardio session either. I have never needed it and have lost up to 25 lbs before a show.

Just my opinion.

Anyway great info on this thread I am glad there are others who have the same beliefs about nutrition and training as I do. Thanks Erik! :awesome:

chicky9914

10-17-2008, 05:50 PM

How does anyone have time for 3 cardio sessions per day?

I am assuming you all WORK at gyms? :confused:

I've only done 1-cardio session per day ever, although, throw in the weight training in the after and/or routine practice, which is where I got "3-a-days." Lost my job at the end of April which made me realize I needed to invest in myself personally before I could take-on anything else professionally (aka train for a fitness show!)

Erik

10-17-2008, 06:25 PM

Great input here. Thanks for your time.

Thanks Vanessa. :)

Agreed. Thanks for taking the time to answer my post. I'm also happy to hear that you believe one has to have SOME bodyfat in order to grow. That's reassuring, and I think it's something many competitors need to hear! :)

Definitely. LIke I said, I cover a lot of it in those 4 blog posts (still a Part 5 to come)

Thanks erik your posts and blog posts are very informative

and i love hearing about less cardio since i HATE every second of it

Thanks Suzanne.

I agree....especially since I'm soooo guilty of doing 3-1hr cardio sessions a day!!!!

I don't know how you do that. While I don't agree with it, I have a lot of respect for that kind of dedication.

Just know, it's not the only way. :)

Erik

10-17-2008, 06:34 PM

I'm probably more like 1400-1500 cals a day.

11.8-12.6x TBW

Sounds much more reasonable. 1400 should be a good deficit for you. The thing with lighter competitors is that do often have to create more of a deficit by way of exercise since they're not getting the same deficit from food that a heavier person would.

For example, let's contrast you and me. You're 119 and I'm 230. Assuming a relatively standard maintenance of 15x TBW, yours is 1785 and mine is 3450. A 20% deficit is a good ballpark, which is 12x TBW. That puts you at 1428 and me at 2760.

Now, the difference - we have the same 20% deficit but I have a weekly deficit here of 4830 (690x7). Yours is only 2499 (357x7). See the issue?

I can create more of a caloric deficit from diet than you can, eating at the same relative deficit. Hence the lighter person generally having to do a bit more cardio (or eat much less food) to create a bigger deficit.

Does that make sense?

So, you are suggesting that I decrease my calories. What x BW??? And also I'm not that 'light' considering I'm only 5'1 and I haven't done calipers, but I'd say my bf is around 18%?? Thanks again. I'd post pics if I were brave, but am not that brave :D

It's not so much a matter of height (although surface area is one of the factors). It's still more an issue of bodyweight.

The biggest question - and I can't remember if you already said this (sorry) - is are you stalled or dropping? I'd not go over 12x TBW personally and depending on activity you might go a little lower.

Beyond that, incorporating refeeds can help as well. I have a new client who was working with an Olympia competitor who had her doing double cardios, and fish and vegetables. Not dropping. I cut her cardio way back, gave her a little more food, much more variety and a weekly refeed. Now she's dropping - on an easier program.

Erik

10-17-2008, 06:35 PM

I am not a fan of double or triple cardio session either. I have never needed it and have lost up to 25 lbs before a show.

Just my opinion.

Anyway great info on this thread I am glad there are others who have the same beliefs about nutrition and training as I do. Thanks Erik! :awesome:

Hey Rebecca,

Definitely agree. Thanks for dropping in :)

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 07:25 PM

Erik

will you address refeeds...how much (percent) do you increase cals and what is the macro profile?

also, your opinion on gda's?

Erik

10-17-2008, 07:39 PM

Erik

Interesting you bring up the topic of refeeds, they seem to be popular in many diets these days (Skiploading, CKD, etc..).

Not familiar with the former ...

When you say structured refeeds, can you give an example. This would probably have to assume that she was too low on cals, maybe in the 13-1400 range.

Thanks

Their theoretical purpose is to attempt to normalize, at least transiently, the regulatory hormones which fall when dieting. Things like leptin, etc. (leptin levels are related to things like insulin, your caloric intake and your current level of body fat. Think of it as one of the big "fat-loss decision makers". The leaner you are relative to your normal bodyfat level, the lower your circulating levels of leptin are generally going to be. Under more normal circumstances, higher body fat, maintenance caloric intake, etc., leptin levels are higher. However, while on sub-maintenance calories, and particularly on low-carb diets where circulating insulin levels are low, leptin levels drop and they can drop quickly. Decreased leptin levels cause a cascade of other regulatory changes, namely a decrease in thyroid output and metabolic rate, as well as an increase in catabolic hormone activity and appetite.)

The shortest time frame shown to have any (and it's small) is 5 hours from my understanding. I usually start there and build up to a full day (or two shorter ones per week). There are many ways to employ them. With certain people I'll even employ full day, no holds barred cheat days (no longer really considered a structured refeed mind you). Noel was doing those up until only a few weeks out earlier this year for example. Got leaner every week.

They're basically just periods of high-carb, low-fat eating. Full day refeeds should bring calories to at least maintenance levels more often than not.

I generally just give a total to shoot for and say have at it - cut out all direct fat, don't overdo the sucrose and fructose and have some fun with it. Eat your normal protein. Makes dieting so much easier. I'd eat an entire box of cereal on these days. :LOLOL: I've had some insane refeeds. It's like you're training on rocket fuel in the gym the next day.

The goal is basically to eat as much as you can with no fat gain.

Whether there is truly an impactful effect on the regulatory hormones with short refeeds is debatable, but who cares why they work - they simply work.

Erik

10-17-2008, 07:40 PM

also, your opinion on gda's?

:confused:

Glucose disposal agents? (that's all I can come up with).

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 07:52 PM

Erik

10-17-2008, 07:55 PM

well said with the refeeds..thank you! THe high carb, minimal fat is pretty much what skip does with skiploading (from what i hear) and the cheat day is a la scott abel and the cycle diet...both very effective methods!

1. Lyle McDonald was probably the first to really iron out the issus of Leptin and Refeeds. Most have built on his information.

2. People have been doing cheat days forever. But yes, Scott uses that methodology as well.

and yes glucose disposal agents

Like what?

And not much. I don't see most supplements currently available being worth their money. Paritcularly in the context they're being purchased under - to see a change in your physique. Who cares (health issues aside) if something helps glucose disposal if there is no tangible improvement in your physique? That's why we generally buy supplements - to help with progress, right?

Just not seeing it with this category. Just my opinion. :shrug:

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 08:21 PM

Erik

10-17-2008, 08:25 PM

I do agree with you, but was wondering in refernce to their effectiveness. on another board, there are people claiming that chrom poly and vanadyl are the best thing in the world LOL. just wondering if you thought they were effective....i suppose the only upside would be that we could eat more carbs while dieting if they were effective?

Are they stuck in the 80s? They must love l-carnitine too.

SBT

10-17-2008, 08:32 PM

I do agree with you, but was wondering in refernce to their effectiveness. on another board, there are people claiming that chrom poly and vanadyl are the best thing in the world LOL. just wondering if you thought they were effective....i suppose the only upside would be that we could eat more carbs while dieting if they were effective?

jason,
havent you yourself seen progress or noticed a difference w/ the combo mentioned???

this is an interesting topic as some people i know swear by gda's

dvsness

10-17-2008, 08:45 PM

Are they stuck in the 80s? They must love l-carnitine too.

ALCAR is good. :p

As for the GDA's, if you don't mind me interjecting a tidbit re: Vanadyl Sulfate.

"High doses of vanadium (anything over 15 mg/day) may cause liver and/or kidney damage."

Adult

Taking 0.5 to 1.0 mg/day of vanadium is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people. Some manufacturers promote high dosages (15 to 100 mg) of vanadyl sulfate per day, but studies do not support such dosages, and they may be toxic. Because the safety and effectiveness of vanadium have not been thoroughly studied, caution should be exercised when using vanadium as a nutritional supplement.

Uses

The effects of vanadium have not been studied extensively in people. The majority of studies to date have been conducted in laboratory animals.

Body Building/Performance Enhancement

While vanadyl sulfate is widely used by athletes to enhance performance, beneficial effects have not been confirmed by studies. Use of vanadium is not advised because of the potential toxic effects associated with high doses of this mineral.

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vanadium-000330.htm

-------------

Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

Erik

10-17-2008, 08:47 PM

ALCAR is good. :p

And different. But yes, you're right. :)

As for the GDA's, if you don't mind me interjecting a tidbit re: Vanadyl Sulfate.

Good info. Thanks Vanessa.

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 08:47 PM

jason,
havent you yourself seen progress or noticed a difference w/ the combo mentioned???

this is an interesting topic as some people i know swear by gda's

I will say that I do take them with cheats, because if I can have a huge cheat and control insulin, then I dont think thats a bad thing. I have yet to try taking them on a regular basis, but yes I have heard from a LOT of people who do like them and swear by them. I am actually very interested to hear your thoughts on "p-slin" from pure, i have tried that and had pretty good results :)

Erik

10-17-2008, 08:48 PM

I will say that I do take them with cheats, because if I can have a huge cheat and control insulin,

Why is controlling insulin your cheats such a big priority? You can gain fat without any insulin.

then I dont think thats a bad thing. I have yet to try taking them on a regular basis, but yes I have heard from a LOT of people who do like them and swear by them.

To the bolded - and swear by them for what though? DId they lose fat? Get bigger? Stronger?

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 08:51 PM

Erik

10-17-2008, 08:53 PM

agreed, but i also dont feel as shitty after my cheats :) as far as what they swear by, well the source im talking about seems to think you can eat more while staying leaner...so i guess that can be used on and off season???

Eat more calorie while staying leaner - that's implying it's increasing metabolic rate and caloric requirements is it not?

I think that's bunk. :LOLOL: There's more to it than insulin management.

Hey if you think it works for ya, by all means keep using it (not speaking to you directly). I just am not sold

dvsness

10-17-2008, 08:53 PM

The only GDA type thing that has ever worked for me contained k-rALA, Quercetin and Biotin. I didn't get that hypo/crash.

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 08:56 PM

Eat more calorie while staying leaner - that's implying it's increasing metabolic rate and caloric requirements is it not?

I think that's bunk. :LOLOL: There's more to it than insulin management.

Hey if you think it works for ya, by all means keep using it (not speaking to you directly). I just am not sold

Thank you!! :respect:

SBT

10-17-2008, 09:07 PM

The only GDA type thing that has ever worked for me contained k-rALA, Quercetin and Biotin. I didn't get that hypo/crash.

That is the only thing I've ever noticed as well when taking them, is that I didn't have the sugar shock and crash :p

ErinFL

10-17-2008, 09:10 PM

Erik, thanks for all the info and time, you've been quite busy ;)

jphillips17

10-17-2008, 10:27 PM

Erik, thanks for all the info and time, you've been quite busy ;)

agreed!!! this guy knows his sh*t!!! :awesome: :awesome:

FitFighter

10-17-2008, 10:43 PM

11.8-12.6x TBW

Sounds much more reasonable. 1400 should be a good deficit for you. The thing with lighter competitors is that do often have to create more of a deficit by way of exercise since they're not getting the same deficit from food that a heavier person would.

For example, let's contrast you and me. You're 119 and I'm 230. Assuming a relatively standard maintenance of 15x TBW, yours is 1785 and mine is 3450. A 20% deficit is a good ballpark, which is 12x TBW. That puts you at 1428 and me at 2760.

Now, the difference - we have the same 20% deficit but I have a weekly deficit here of 4830 (690x7). Yours is only 2499 (357x7). See the issue?

I can create more of a caloric deficit from diet than you can, eating at the same relative deficit. Hence the lighter person generally having to do a bit more cardio (or eat much less food) to create a bigger deficit.

Does that make sense? Yes, I understand.

It's not so much a matter of height (although surface area is one of the factors). It's still more an issue of bodyweight.

The biggest question - and I can't remember if you already said this (sorry) - is are you stalled or dropping? I'd not go over 12x TBW personally and depending on activity you might go a little lower.

Beyond that, incorporating refeeds can help as well. I have a new client who was working with an Olympia competitor who had her doing double cardios, and fish and vegetables. Not dropping. I cut her cardio way back, gave her a little more food, much more variety and a weekly refeed. Now she's dropping - on an easier program.

OK, so you recommend lower cals to 12 x TBW and incorporate a refeed. I must admit that I tend to eat the same thing everyday and feel guilty about a 'carb-up'. Maybe I'll have an extra bowl of oatmeal or something on my higher carb days :nuts: We'll see how it goes. I am stalled - I actually just got on the scale and I am up a pound!

Thanks for all the info- it's very informative. BTW- I did not realize you were such a hottie! :D

Meechel

10-17-2008, 11:03 PM

Meechel

10-17-2008, 11:04 PM

agreed!!! this guy knows his sh*t!!! :awesome: :awesome:

Not to brag but when my ART Dr. saw Erik's credentials he was VERY impressed and said many do not have the degree's especially honours that Erik has. :respect:

Erik

10-17-2008, 11:09 PM

OK, so you recommend lower cals to 12 x TBW and incorporate a refeed.

Probably at the most 12x BW - you might have to go lower, depending on what you're adding to your deficit by way of exercise.

Really depends on where you are now, how much time you have left, and where you need to be. If you're a bit behind schedule, try 11x.

I must admit that I tend to eat the same thing everyday and feel guilty about a 'carb-up'.

You have to break that. Recognize that those feelings of guilt - that's still a choice you're making; to feel that way that is.

Use a little logic - you can't feel guilty for doing something you're SUPPOSED to be doing, or something you're INCORPORATING into your program. It's not the same as messing up and cheating. It's a planned part of your strategy.

Maybe I'll have an extra bowl of oatmeal or something on my higher carb days :nuts:

That won't do anything.

We'll see how it goes. I am stalled - I actually just got on the scale and I am up a pound!

Try lowering cals a bit. Tell me your macros again? I think you said protein was around 200 and fat only 20? At 119, you don't need that amount of protein. It's inefficient energy. A little less protein and a little more fat, or carbs, whatever, would serve you better.

Thanks for all the info- it's very informative. BTW- I did not realize you were such a hottie! :D

Any time, and thanks for the compliment. :D

Noel Clark

10-17-2008, 11:11 PM

OK, so you recommend lower cals to 12 x TBW and incorporate a refeed. I must admit that I tend to eat the same thing everyday and feel guilty about a 'carb-up'. Maybe I'll have an extra bowl of oatmeal or something on my higher carb days :nuts: We'll see how it goes. I am stalled - I actually just got on the scale and I am up a pound!

Thanks for all the info- it's very informative. BTW- I did not realize you were such a hottie! :D

just to add to this (I know this is erik's thread) but even though it is mentally hard to add the food back in or take out the cardio...it works. As erik said earlier in this thread i was using all day cheat...ALL DAY EAT YOUR FACE OFF cheats where the scale would go up 8lbs the next day and with in one weeks time, my weight had dropped back down and my measurements were even smaller than the morning of the cheat. I know you are talking refeeds but you will be surprised how these tools will help.

FitFighter

10-17-2008, 11:19 PM

Thanks both Erik and Noel, and if "the proof is in the pudding" :D ...... Noel is the proof - geez, your body is crazy!!!

Thanks again for all the input, it really opened my eyes.

Yes, I'm at about 200 grams of protien a day with very low fat. It's hard for me to eat added fat except for maybe peanut butter, and the protein is just much more satisfying.

SBT

10-17-2008, 11:29 PM

Erik, thanks for all the info and time, you've been quite busy ;)

Agreed!!! Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!! :awesome:

NPCFigure 40

10-17-2008, 11:30 PM

LOVING this thread Erik! Great information. Your thinking is very similar to my trainer with both nutrition and training programs. Rock on!:D:respect:

Jill

KP DIVA

10-17-2008, 11:47 PM

I don't know how you do that. While I don't agree with it, I have a lot of respect for that kind of dedication.

Just know, it's not the only way. :)

Looking back I'm amazed that I found the time to do all the cardio......I was pleased w/ the results. For the next show, I decreased to 2 a days and kept on some weight and wasn't as pleased....would luv to find a way to do 1 hr. cardio and look the way I did doing 3 hrs.

W/ the thyroid damage....usually how low are the calories when this occurs.

Noel Clark

10-17-2008, 11:56 PM

Erik

10-17-2008, 11:58 PM

Looking back I'm amazed that I found the time to do all the cardio......I was pleased w/ the results. For the next show, I decreased to 2 a days and kept on some weight and wasn't as pleased....would luv to find a way to do 1 hr. cardio and look the way I did doing 3 hrs.

You can.

What kind of bodyweight/calories when doing the 3hrs and 2hrs?

W/ the thyroid damage....usually how low are the calories when this occurs.

There really isn't a set answer to this - it's going to be different from person to person. 10x BW normally approximates one's BMR (assuming the person has a normally functioning system).

10-12x BW depending on activity factors is generally a good dieting ball park for mos. More cardio usually means more food.

Start dropping below that, without regular refeeds and you'll probably run into some metabolic issues, at least temporarily until you fix them. Again, ball park stuff - hard to be any more specific without a more thorough assessment. Everyone's a bit different. You just have to pay attention to your body, the signs, etc.

FlyFitGal

10-18-2008, 04:15 AM

Hi Erik!! Nice to find you here :)
Thanks for taking the time to share your smarts!

KP DIVA

10-18-2008, 05:12 AM

even 1 hour a day ...I can't even imagine.

OMG!!! NOEL!!! You mean to tell me you have that physique and you're not even doing 1 hr a day!!!! You have got to be kidding me!! Ok, ok....I'm really open to trying something new now!!!

You can.

What kind of bodyweight/calories when doing the 3hrs and 2hrs?

There really isn't a set answer to this - it's going to be different from person to person. 10x BW normally approximates one's BMR (assuming the person has a normally functioning system).

10-12x BW depending on activity factors is generally a good dieting ball park for mos. More cardio usually means more food.

Start dropping below that, without regular refeeds and you'll probably run into some metabolic issues, at least temporarily until you fix them. Again, ball park stuff - hard to be any more specific without a more thorough assessment. Everyone's a bit different. You just have to pay attention to your body, the signs, etc.

I started my prep 12 weeks out from Jr. U weighing 141, it was the Monday after I came home from the Arnold..I'd say my true weight was 133 b/c I gained 8 pounds over the weekend...just from eating pancakes for breakfast the 4 days I was in Columbus and not doing cardio...it's just amazing how fast I can put on weight!!

My caloric intake was about 1100 calories/day consisting of lean protein, veggies, and fats from omega 3 whole eggs, and 1/4 cup of cashews. I'd usually eat a cup of oatmeal every 3-4 days just depending on how I felt. For 12 weeks going into Jr. U I did 3 - 1hr cardios a minimum of 5 days a week along w/ my weights. The other 2 days I usually did 2-1hr sessions. The final 2-3 weeks there were times when I'd just hit the weights and do 1-hr of cardio b/c I just couldn't do any more. I didn't do any refeeds for my Jr. U prep. I left for the show that Thursday night weighing 116....that's b4 I started my carb-up which was very minimal...so I'd say I was 118 that Sat. at Pre-j.

For my very 1st prep when I lost 38 pounds in about 10 weeks I had one major refeed....and that was about 3 weeks out from my show and only b/c my posing coach looked at me and said I need to eat, lol!! My trainer was trying to get the BF down but he also goes to my posing coach for posing so knew that if he said EAT I'd better eat!!! That refeed was the best thing in the world...I felt like superwoman the next day!!

Noel Clark

10-18-2008, 10:53 AM

OMG!!! NOEL!!! You mean to tell me you have that physique and you're not even doing 1 hr a day!!!! You have got to be kidding me!! Ok, ok....I'm really open to trying something new now!!!

Kenyatta, right now I am doing SS twice a week (40 min each) and then some BW stuff (that feels like cardio :lol: ) twice a week (20 min)

And NO it isn't a genetic thing either, I lose fat just like everyone else. Now this isn't the exact same for all our clients but I don't think any of our clients are doing an hour a day....

I started my prep 12 weeks out from Jr. U weighing 141, it was the Monday after I came home from the Arnold..I'd say my true weight was 133 b/c I gained 8 pounds over the weekend...just from eating pancakes for breakfast the 4 days I was in Columbus and not doing cardio...it's just amazing how fast I can put on weight!!

But that is like water weight. Easy come easy go.

My caloric intake was about 1100 calories/day consisting of lean protein, veggies, and fats from omega 3 whole eggs, and 1/4 cup of cashews. I'd usually eat a cup of oatmeal every 3-4 days just depending on how I felt. For 12 weeks going into Jr. U I did 3 - 1hr cardios a minimum of 5 days a week along w/ my weights. The other 2 days I usually did 2-1hr sessions. The final 2-3 weeks there were times when I'd just hit the weights and do 1-hr of cardio b/c I just couldn't do any more. I didn't do any refeeds for my Jr. U prep. I left for the show that Thursday night weighing 116....that's b4 I started my carb-up which was very minimal...so I'd say I was 118 that Sat. at Pre-j.

Is there a faint smilie? See I have no idea how you did that. That is only about 8 X BW in calories. PLUS all that training and cardio. I wouldn't be able to function. What about post workout nutrition--carbs in there?

For my very 1st prep when I lost 38 pounds in about 10 weeks I had one major refeed....and that was about 3 weeks out from my show and only b/c my posing coach looked at me and said I need to eat, lol!! My trainer was trying to get the BF down but he also goes to my posing coach for posing so knew that if he said EAT I'd better eat!!! That refeed was the best thing in the world...I felt like superwoman the next day!!

there are so many different ways to prep, and you have always come in looking awesome so it isn't like what you did didn't work, but at what cost? I just think that people need to realize that there are other ways to get show ready than that....

:kiss: I don't know how you did it girl...makes me feel like a contest prep wimp LOL

ErinFL

10-18-2008, 11:14 AM

there are so many different ways to prep, and you have always come in looking awesome so it isn't like what you did didn't work, but at what cost? I just think that people need to realize that there are other ways to get show ready than that....

Hallelujah!!!:awesome:

Scarl3tbutt3rfly

10-18-2008, 12:29 PM

You also have to recognize the fact that you have to accept at least some fat gain. Those who try to avoid it - end up looking the same, year in and year out. No one's partitioning ability is so good that their bodies direct all calories over maintenance to muscle. Some ends up as fat.

I really don't care what specific foods are being eaten - but then again, I assume that people are trying to adopt lifestyle eating habits as opposed to just 'diet mode' eating habits as well.

An assumed maintenance would be somewhere in the 1700-1800 (at 120), all else being equal and 'normal'. Start there and then build on it based on what's happening with your body. Add 10%, eat there for two weeks, reassess. No upward climb? Add another 10%. Too much upward climb for the timeline? Scale it back a bit. Simple outcome-based adjustments.

I was reading your blogs. What is a desired weight gain per week to achieve? (knowing you are gaining some fat). Rephrase: What kind of weight gain are you looking for when making these adjustments? 1 lb per week? 0.5lb per week?

Im 5'3", 117-118lbs post comp at about 4 weeks now (last show 9/13. I still feel like Im retaining some water). And looking to put on some quality muscle. My trainer has me at 210grams of protein a day atm. But my cals are around 2050/day on average right now. (I actually have a caloric intake of 1800-1900/day, plus a cheat meal weekly, macros are about 45-35-20). I started at about 1700 and adjusted slowly. I didnt have a hard diet before my last show, as I was pretty lean already, so my cals prior to show were about 1600-1700 or so. I was actually increased in cals at 4 weeks out (from protein, due to too much weight loss, was down from 114 to 111 at that time, I had stopped cheats at about 7 weeks out, but had a refeed at 4).

It seems to me my weight is just finally stabilizing after competition, after all the water manipulation from peakweek, and incorporating my "nondiet foods" back in. (It was fluctuating from 116-122 lbs on average).

Calories, carbs and fats also modulate protein requirements, so in an offseason, where these are elevated, protein requirements actually decrease (relative to contest dieting).

Still though, somewhere in the 1-1.25g/lb is fine for a natural athlete. You can up it if you're assisted as net protein accretion tends to be higher with anabolics.

So I would assume that offseason, I would want lower protein and higher energy sources than in season macros? (higher protein, lower energy sources in season) or am I getting that backward?

My trainer gives me guidelines on my diet, but I mostly manage it, which is why Im asking.

Erik

10-18-2008, 01:52 PM

I started my prep 12 weeks out from Jr. U weighing 141, it was the Monday after I came home from the Arnold..I'd say my true weight was 133 b/c I gained 8 pounds over the weekend...just from eating pancakes for breakfast the 4 days I was in Columbus and not doing cardio...it's just amazing how fast I can put on weight!!

My caloric intake was about 1100 calories/day consisting of lean protein, veggies, and fats from omega 3 whole eggs, and 1/4 cup of cashews. I'd usually eat a cup of oatmeal every 3-4 days just depending on how I felt. For 12 weeks going into Jr. U I did 3 - 1hr cardios a minimum of 5 days a week along w/ my weights. The other 2 days I usually did 2-1hr sessions. The final 2-3 weeks there were times when I'd just hit the weights and do 1-hr of cardio b/c I just couldn't do any more.

Kenyatto - I don't think you got in shape because of this per se; but rather, in spite of this. The deficit you created for yourself is absolutely massive and that's when your body starts to fight back.

Eventually of course, everyone will get there if they eat few enough calories and do enough exercise. The point is, there's a cost associated with that.

It should not be a matter of how much cardio you can TOLERATE, but IMO at least, the least amount of cardio necessary to see the results you're after.

Think about it - 15-20 hrs of cardio per week on very low calories relative to bodyweight - resulting in how much weekly fat loss? It's not working very well if you break it down that way and look at how much progress your body is making for what you have to do.

My opinion is that this is what slows results down (and of course creates compensatory metabolic problems). Low cals and 2 hours of cardio stops working, because it's too much. Go to 3 hours and you get some results.

Why? Because you've overwhelmed the body's defense against fat loss. It can only defend so much. Again, low enough cals and enough exercise over time will get anyone in shape.

I realize this might not be popular around here - but based on observation of others and experiences of my own, I have yet to see even one person who actually needed to do this. I'd think I'd have come across at least someone in my own business that had to to this if people truly had to - and I haven't. Again, not saying it doesn't get people in shape, because it clearly does, but there are other ways as well - I've had people come to be from preps like that - they'll never go back.

Not meant to step on the toes (much) of anyone who holds dearly to this methodology, but I'm going to continue to preach that there's an easier, less time consuming way. :)

For my very 1st prep when I lost 38 pounds in about 10 weeks

Averages 3.8lbs per week all the way through - there's no way you can drop that kind of fat weekly unless you were REALLY fat ... all the way through, which I really doubt. Which means it was also muscle loss.

That's a caloric deficit averaging 1900 a day - per day. And that's the deficit!
SO even if you were eating 1200 calories per day, that would imply you're expending 3100 calories PER DAY.

Impossible.

I had one major refeed....and that was about 3 weeks out from my show and only b/c my posing coach looked at me and said I need to eat, lol!! My trainer was trying to get the BF down but he also goes to my posing coach for posing so knew that if he said EAT I'd better eat!!! That refeed was the best thing in the world...I felt like superwoman the next day!![/COLOR]

They should be weekly part of your program.

Erik

10-18-2008, 01:55 PM

Hi Erik!! Nice to find you here :)
Thanks for taking the time to share your smarts!

Hey Michelle. Good to see you too. ;)

Erik

10-18-2008, 02:03 PM

I was reading your blogs. What is a desired weight gain per week to achieve? (knowing you are gaining some fat). Rephrase: What kind of weight gain are you looking for when making these adjustments? 1 lb per week? 0.5lb per week?

Whether you're natural or not changes the equation for starters.

But if someone is gaining 2lbs per week for example, based on the average rates of TRUE muscle gain, they're getting fat. (after the initial post contest normalization that is. I'm talking true offseason, not rebound)

If you're trying to stay in charge of bodyfat, keep the weekly climb small. People don't think 2lbs of muscle/month is a lot (muscle, not just weight), but if you extend it out to a year, it's 24lbs. No one is doing that! (and that averages out to 0.5lbs muscle/per week so technically that's A LOT if you look at it that way).

Im 5'3", 117-118lbs post comp at about 4 weeks now (last show 9/13. I still feel like Im retaining some water). And looking to put on some quality muscle. My trainer has me at 210grams of protein a day atm. But my cals are around 2050/day on average right now.

Caloric intake looks good; I just think 210 of protein at a total bodyweight of 118 is excessive. Again, calories modulate protein requirements - higher calories bring it down. You're at 1.75g/lb (and probably over 2g/lb if you're looking at LBM instead of TBW)

Again, different story if you're 'supplementing'.

so I would assume that offseason, I would want lower protein and higher energy sources than in season macros? (higher protein, lower energy sources in season) or am I getting that backward?

Yes, that's right.

Less of your protein intake is being oxidized when cals, carbs, and fats are higher. More of it's being oxidized for energy when these same things are lower - like when you're dieting.

Doesn't matter how much protein you eat - you can't force physiology. Your body will take what it needs and get rid of the rest. Eating more protein after a point doesn't force your body to assimilate more - it forces it to oxidize more, because it doesn't have a use for it at that point.

Scarl3tbutt3rfly

10-18-2008, 02:32 PM

Whether you're natural or not changes the equation for starters.

Im natural.

But if someone is gaining 2lbs per week for example, based on the average rates of TRUE muscle gain, they're getting fat. (after the initial post contest normalization that is. I'm talking true offseason, not rebound)

If you're trying to stay in charge of bodyfat, keep the weekly climb small. People don't think 2lbs of muscle/month is a lot (muscle, not just weight), but if you extend it out to a year, it's 24lbs. No one is doing that! (and that averages out to 0.5lbs muscle/per week so technically that's A LOT if you look at it that way).

Makes sense. So Im looking to achieve 1lb per week or every 2 weeks? (0.5lb/week for a goal?)

Caloric intake looks good; I just think 210 of protein at a total bodyweight of 118 is excessive. Again, calories modulate protein requirements - higher calories bring it down. You're at 1.75g/lb (and probably over 2g/lb if you're looking at LBM instead of TBW)

Again, different story if you're 'supplementing'.

You are right, I prolly need to increase my carbs some. Just afraid to make too many changes until I see either consistant gain or loss. My weight still feels a little all over the place.

Yes, that's right.

Less of your protein intake is being oxidized when cals, carbs, and fats are higher. More of it's being oxidized for energy when these same things are lower - like when you're dieting.

Doesn't matter how much protein you eat - you can't force physiology. Your body will take what it needs and get rid of the rest. Eating more protein after a point doesn't force your body to assimilate more - it forces it to oxidize more, because it doesn't have a use for it at that point.

Understand. Makes sense

Thanks so much :D

KP DIVA

10-18-2008, 02:39 PM

Kenyatta, right now I am doing SS twice a week (40 min each) and then some BW stuff (that feels like cardio :lol: ) twice a week (20 min)

And NO it isn't a genetic thing either, I lose fat just like everyone else. Now this isn't the exact same for all our clients but I don't think any of our clients are doing an hour a day....

But that is like water weight. Easy come easy go.

I was thinking genetics...b/c I feel like mine are a blessing as well as curse! Yes, I know I can't 8 pounds of solid fat in 8 days.... but still, 8 pounds of water gain is still crazy!!!

I'm in absolute amazement that you all are getting stage ready on less than 1 hr. a day!! I'm all for trying something new that will free up some time during prep. .

Is there a faint smilie? See I have no idea how you did that. That is only about 8 X BW in calories. PLUS all that training and cardio. I wouldn't be able to function. What about post workout nutrition--carbs in there?

there are so many different ways to prep, and you have always come in looking awesome so it isn't like what you did didn't work, but at what cost? I just think that people need to realize that there are other ways to get show ready than that....

:kiss: I don't know how you did it girl...makes me feel like a contest prep wimp LOL

LOL! I know what you feel like as far as being a contest wimp...b/c although I do a crap load of cardio I don't lift 20% of the weight that some of these girls are lifting. My weights are very, very, very light!!!! Maybe that's how I had the energy...dunno. We have always been more concerned w/ dropping the BF more so than saving the muscle...especially since I was told at all 3 of my shows that I'm either borderline or have too much muscle for figure.

Erik

10-18-2008, 02:45 PM

I was thinking genetics...b/c I feel like mine are a blessing as well as curse! Yes, I know I can't 8 pounds of solid fat in 8 days.... but still, 8 pounds of water gain is still crazy!!!

I'm in absolute amazement that you all are getting stage ready on less than 1 hr. a day!!

Keep in mind - that over the years, I've not had even one person do an hour of cardio per day. Ever. They don't all have great genetics. I took someone who did 2 hrs/day last year way down and she dropped more this year, training less. Retained more size, got leaner, etc., and had a much more fun time preparing for contests this year.

Noel has to work hard (just differently given she doesn't do all the cardio) as any other competitor. All you competitors work hard! Very hard. Noel is blessed with tremendous structure, muscle bellies and shape, but she has to diet hard and train hard to get ready for her contests too.

But we adopt the policy that says - least amount of cardio necessary; not most amount she can tolerate.

KP DIVA

10-18-2008, 02:57 PM

Kenyatto - I don't think you got in shape because of this per se; but rather, in spite of this. The deficit you created for yourself is absolutely massive and that's when your body starts to fight back.

Eventually of course, everyone will get there if they eat few enough calories and do enough exercise. The point is, there's a cost associated with that.

It should not be a matter of how much cardio you can TOLERATE, but IMO at least, the least amount of cardio necessary to see the results you're after.

Think about it - 15-20 hrs of cardio per week on very low calories relative to bodyweight - resulting in how much weekly fat loss? It's not working very well if you break it down that way and look at how much progress your body is making for what you have to do.

My opinion is that this is what slows results down (and of course creates compensatory metabolic problems). Low cals and 2 hours of cardio stops working, because it's too much. Go to 3 hours and you get some results.

Why? Because you've overwhelmed the body's defense against fat loss. It can only defend so much. Again, low enough cals and enough exercise over time will get anyone in shape.

I realize this might not be popular around here - but based on observation of others and experiences of my own, I have yet to see even one person who actually needed to do this. I'd think I'd have come across at least someone in my own business that had to to this if people truly had to - and I haven't. Again, not saying it doesn't get people in shape, because it clearly does, but there are other ways as well - I've had people come to be from preps like that - they'll never go back.

I know there are better ways b/c we're all different...I just really think my body is very different from most ppl!!! I work w/ ppl everyday and we ask them to do things that they aren't comfortable w/ because they are use to doing it THEIR WAY...and at the end of the process they are amazed. So, I have to take the same position....how do I know IT WON"T work for me if I never really try it. And like you said....I may never go back...that's what's most attractive. The idea of never having to do 3 hrs. a cardio again in my life.....unless I'm running a marathon!!!

Not meant to step on the toes (much) of anyone who holds dearly to this methodology, but I'm going to continue to preach that there's an easier, less time consuming way. :)

Preach on!!

Averages 3.8lbs per week all the way through - there's no way you can drop that kind of fat weekly unless you were REALLY fat ... all the way through, which I really doubt. Which means it was also muscle loss.

That's a caloric deficit averaging 1900 a day - per day. And that's the deficit!
SO even if you were eating 1200 calories per day, that would imply you're expending 3100 calories PER DAY.

Impossible.

They should be weekly part of your program.

LOL!! I wasn't really really really fat, but I was really really really chunky!!! I started my prep at 13 weeks out weighing 152 and walked on stage weighing 114. Like I said to Noel, I'm sure some of it was muscle loss...which is still amazing to me b/c I was still told I had too much muscle.

So, I guess when I try this new method....if they are already saying I'm too muscular as it is...w/o all the cardio wouldn't I just be that much more muscular...b/c if you are saying I had to be eating up muscle more so than BF what will then happen....how would l look on stage?

Erik

10-18-2008, 03:08 PM

So, I guess when I try this new method....if they are already saying I'm too muscular as it is...w/o all the cardio wouldn't I just be that much more muscular...b/c if you are saying I had to be eating up muscle more so than BF what will then happen....how would l look on stage?

You're too muscular at 114? :confused:

There are some pretty muscular girls who've done well this year. Noel is very muscular, Jen Hamilton too. Cynthia Herndon/Visionquester just turned pro - she's also very muscular and looks really good. Their bodies have nice flow to them with the muscle they carry.

Thinking about it as I write this though, maybe for some people, they don't look as good with more muscle; and things just flow better with less. And others, they look better with more. That would seem to make sense I think. Comes down to a case-by-case assessment in that respect. If that's the feedback you got, then I guess the judges must be on to something for you though.

But unless you've put ON muscle since your show, you shouldn't be coming in bigger right? And it's not like you're going to be adding pounds of muscle while dieting.

KP DIVA

10-18-2008, 03:19 PM

You're too muscular at 114? :confused:

There are some pretty muscular girls who've done well this year. Noel is very muscular, Jen Hamilton too. Cynthia Herndon/Visionquester just turned pro - she's also very muscular and looks really good. Their bodies have nice flow to them with the muscle they carry.

Thinking about it as I write this though, maybe for some people, they don't look as good with more muscle; and things just flow better with less. And others, they look better with more. That would seem to make sense I think. Comes down to a case-by-case assessment in that respect. If that's the feedback you got, then I guess the judges must be on to something for you though.

But unless you've put ON muscle since your show, you shouldn't be coming in bigger right? And it's not like you're going to be adding pounds of muscle while dieting.

Those 3 have been able to get away w/ a little more mass. No, I doubt I put on anymore muscle w/ the weight I'm lifting..I guess what I meant is if I were burning up muscle wouldn't I just look that much bigger....but I understand what you mean w/ the overall flow and symmetry of the individual.

I've gone to your website...but didn't see your prices, etc. Can you PM me some info on what your prep cost would be and what it consist of.

jphillips17

10-18-2008, 03:59 PM

Erik

dont know if you have covered this or not, but from what I can gather you carb cycle? If so, in which way. Do you do high/med/low, low with refeeds, or just do workout/non-workout days?

Patricia Dees

10-18-2008, 04:04 PM

I just want to add that I HIGHLY recommend Erik for general training and/or prep. I am back working with him now after a while working with someone else then on my own.

No one beats his services when it comes to personalization, updates, feedback, etc.... :)

Erik

10-18-2008, 04:41 PM

Erik

dont know if you have covered this or not, but from what I can gather you carb cycle? If so, in which way. Do you do high/med/low, low with refeeds, or just do workout/non-workout days?

Not necessarily, no. I do not believe in solo approaches, whether that be keto, low fat, carb cycling, etc. They're all tools in a great big toolbox. Their utility and application is dependent on the person. Given there is no one best way, having everyone do a low carb diet or everyone doing a low fat diet seems like it takes a bit of the customization out of it. Some people will excel on one, some won't. It all comes down to assessments.

It's one approach I use, and I like it. I guess in some capacity, even a basic plan has some kind of cycling built into it as I might have more carbs on training days than non-training days.

It also offers a bit more variety, especially if you're using a 3-day plan of H, M and L days. How that's set up is dependent on how I have the training set up. Many, many ways to do it provided at the end of the week, you have the necessary deficit.

Erik

10-18-2008, 04:51 PM

SBT

10-18-2008, 04:58 PM

Do you usually like to start a prep about 12 weeks out, or do you like the longer preps of 16 weeks? Or I guess that could be one of those things that varies client to client too...

Erik

10-18-2008, 05:01 PM

Do you usually like to start a prep about 12 weeks out, or do you like the longer preps of 16 weeks? Or I guess that could be one of those things that varies client to client too...

Depends on how fat you are.

Fatter you are, the longer you should be prepping if you have any hope of retaining muscle.

Longer tends to be better IMO. Better to be ready early, than be forced to play catch up.

Koaleen

10-18-2008, 05:55 PM

Depends on how fat you are.

Fatter you are, the longer you should be prepping if you have any hope of retaining muscle.

Longer tends to be better IMO. Better to be ready early, than be forced to play catch up.

:rolf::awesome:

That's awesome. Ahhhhh refreshing honesty. You made my day.

SBT

10-18-2008, 06:27 PM

Rainy

10-18-2008, 06:54 PM

- I've had people come to be from preps like that - they'll never go back.

Yeah that!!.... Halleluja!!! :yourock:

Rainy

10-18-2008, 07:04 PM

jphillips17

10-18-2008, 07:40 PM

Not necessarily, no. I do not believe in solo approaches, whether that be keto, low fat, carb cycling, etc. They're all tools in a great big toolbox. Their utility and application is dependent on the person. Given there is no one best way, having everyone do a low carb diet or everyone doing a low fat diet seems like it takes a bit of the customization out of it. Some people will excel on one, some won't. It all comes down to assessments.

It's one approach I use, and I like it. I guess in some capacity, even a basic plan has some kind of cycling built into it as I might have more carbs on training days than non-training days.

It also offers a bit more variety, especially if you're using a 3-day plan of H, M and L days. How that's set up is dependent on how I have the training set up. Many, many ways to do it provided at the end of the week, you have the necessary deficit.

On these off training, lower carb days are you essentially calorie cycling too by lowering the cals...or are you upping pro or EFAs to compensate?

I have seen both done, but this is YOUR Q&A :)

Jennie

10-18-2008, 09:05 PM

You're too muscular at 114? :confused:

There are some pretty muscular girls who've done well this year. Noel is very muscular, Jen Hamilton too. Cynthia Herndon/Visionquester just turned pro - she's also very muscular and looks really good. Their bodies have nice flow to them with the muscle they carry.

Thinking about it as I write this though, maybe for some people, they don't look as good with more muscle; and things just flow better with less. And others, they look better with more. That would seem to make sense I think. Comes down to a case-by-case assessment in that respect. If that's the feedback you got, then I guess the judges must be on to something for you though.

But unless you've put ON muscle since your show, you shouldn't be coming in bigger right? And it's not like you're going to be adding pounds of muscle while dieting.
I have flow? sweet! :p Im so happy to see Cynthia being awarded for her more muscular stream lined physique..the judging was on then!! Noel is next!!

I just want to add that I HIGHLY recommend Erik for general training and/or prep. I am back working with him now after a while working with someone else then on my own.

No one beats his services when it comes to personalization, updates, feedback, etc.... :)
:cool:

Erik

10-18-2008, 10:43 PM

On these off training, lower carb days are you essentially calorie cycling too by lowering the cals...or are you upping pro or EFAs to compensate?

Again, sometimes. I realize that's not very helpful, but there just isn't one answer. It can be done many ways.

Sometimes cals stay constant and macros change and sometimes the cals are different/staggered b/w training and off days. Both can be effective options.

If I am dropping carbs, I will generally up fat, not protein. Protein generally stays constant.

DANISH DYNAMITE

10-19-2008, 12:27 AM

Hi Erik,

Thank your great help and support on our board!
I have a few questions for you too.

You meassure maintenance weight as 15 x lbs
I have a good friend she just started a prep.
Her weight is 176 at 5'2, 15x176=2640
But her competitionweight was 1 1/2 years ago 132.
Lets say she gained 10lbs of muscle since then that would make her 142x15=2130.
Since fat doesnt burn any calories, and she is weighing a good bit over her contest weight, would you use her off-season or contestweight for estimating her caloric intake, or would you go somewhere in between?

Thank you for your time:)

Erik

10-19-2008, 12:37 AM

Hi Erik,

Hello she of the amazing legs. :respect:

You meassure maintenance weight as 15 x lbs

This tends to approximate it nicely assuming the person is 'normal'. There are a number of more complicated equations, like the Harris-Benedict for example, but they all come out to approximately 15x TBW.

And it's a ballpark - good place to start. Might be maintenance for some, might not be. But it should be relatively close to that unless someone just came off a hardcore prep.

I have a good friend she just started a prep.
Her weight is 176 at 5'2, 15x176=2640
But her competitionweight was 1 1/2 years ago 132.
Lets say she gained 10lbs of muscle since then that would make her 142x15=2130.
Since fat doesnt burn any calories,

That is not true actually. Very common misconception. There are published papers on this topic. They determined the following:

adipose tissue = 4.5 kcal/kg/day
muscle tissue = 13 kcal/kg/day

and she is weighing a good bit over her contest weight, would you use her off-season or contestweight for estimating her caloric intake, or would you go somewhere in between?

I'd honestly use total bodyweight since that's what she's carrying around. Imagine going up a flight of stairs carrying two 15-lb dumbbells all the time. That's going to take more work. The calories burned for a given activity are higher when you're lugging around weight.

I might base protein on either LBM or even expected contest weight (which will be somewhere b/w LBM and current TBW), but I'd base her calories on what she is carrying around now.

DANISH DYNAMITE

10-19-2008, 12:42 AM

Hi hi thanks for your compliment:D
And thank you for your very fullfilling answer:)

chicky9914

10-19-2008, 12:46 AM

just to add to this (I know this is erik's thread) but even though it is mentally hard to add the food back in or take out the cardio...it works. As erik said earlier in this thread i was using all day cheat...ALL DAY EAT YOUR FACE OFF cheats where the scale would go up 8lbs the next day and with in one weeks time, my weight had dropped back down and my measurements were even smaller than the morning of the cheat. I know you are talking refeeds but you will be surprised how these tools will help.

Wait, so it's not a bad thing if you wake up the next day after a cheat meal and you're 1 lb heavier? If this ever happened to me I freaked out and went "sh*t I overdid it on the cheat last night!" So it's okay if this happens?

Erik

10-19-2008, 12:50 AM

Wait, so it's not a bad thing if you wake up the next day after a cheat meal and you're 1 lb heavier? If this ever happened to me I freaked out and went "sh*t I overdid it on the cheat last night!" So it's okay if this happens?

Why wouldn't you be heavier? A bit more water, glycogen, etc. It's easy come, easy go.

Noel and I got a laugh every time seeing how much she could gain. She'd gain like 5 and I'd say "oooh, weak cheat. You didn't eat enough". :LOLOL:

That weight falls off just as fast as it comes on. There are always day-to-day fluctuations in the scale. Don't let it control you.

Read my scale rant :LOLOL: LINK (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/category/beware-scale-rant/)

And this one about daily water fluctuations - LINK (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/07/01/the-scale-lies/)

chicky9914

10-19-2008, 12:55 AM

Thanks Erik. That always made me sooo freaked out, to the point of avoiding my cheats (I know, WTF was I thinking!) so that's a big sigh of relief.

DANISH DYNAMITE

10-19-2008, 01:02 AM

I sent you a pm:)

Quadrablue

10-19-2008, 04:19 AM

powergirl

10-19-2008, 05:13 AM

eric u seem like a textbook kind of guy so let's see if you agree. i'm sure there will be others who prefer a dift approach (palumbo, metabolic diet, etc), but according to the science, a BB's requirement for less fat actually has to do with the type of training a BB will do versus an athlete such as a fitness competitor or a runner. as you're probably aware, an endurance athlete (runner, etc) will use more triglycerides for energy whereas high intensity sports (like BB) will utilize more glycogen for a primary energy source, so we don't need as much fat as another type of athlete. thus we will look leaner without the additional fat...theoretically...because our calorie levels will be more appropriate to our energy output...

also, its prob why so many strength/bb athletes are more prone to getting fat, we use mostly glycogen stores for energy and a minor amount of body fat stores so we don't need as much as fat as we think we do. that and many people are just craving a variety of fatty foods post-show and go crazy! of course we need essential fats but those are easily gained thru many of the foods we eat and some minor supplementation.

now we'll see if eric agrees.... :angel: ... i'm sure quadrablue has her own experiences with her clients too but science is a good place to start for an answer...i'd be curious to hear from others...

Quadrablue

10-19-2008, 06:09 AM

Thank you Zoa for putting into words what I couldn't.

Suzanne

10-19-2008, 12:37 PM

Erik

10-19-2008, 12:42 PM

I apologize if this has been asked before, but I could not find it. What are your thoughts on fats in contest prep? I have tried both (with and without) and found that I am harder without fats in my contest diet. Is it safe to assume that it is personal thing as with everything else?

The issue of fat intake vs carb intake it primarily determined by glucose tolerance/insulin resistance vs sensitivity.

Some will fair better on lower carb diets (as evidenced by the successful people who adopt that approach) and some will fair better on a lower fat diet (again, as evidenced by the successful people who adopt that approach).

There is no one-size-fits-all rule that applies to everyone.

If you look, feel, etc., better with a lower fat intake, since you've tried both, then it's clearly the better methodology for your physiology and I'd stick with what works, because in the end, that's what it's all about - what works for you.

Erik

10-19-2008, 12:55 PM

eric u seem like a textbook kind of guy so let's see if you agree. i'm sure there will be others who prefer a dift approach (palumbo, metabolic diet, etc), but according to the science,

First off, it's Erik.

According to the science? As in published?

a BB's requirement for less fat actually

That is assuming everyone is the same for starters. If we're speaking of getting leaner, calories dictate weight loss and composition of calories dictate composition of weight loss. Some fare better on more carbs and some fare better on more fat. There are insulin resistant bodybuilders out there.

Carbs and fats are energy yielding nutrients. You're speaking from a performance-related standpoint.

has to do with the type of training a BB will do versus an athlete such as a fitness competitor or a runner. as you're probably aware, an endurance athlete (runner, etc) will use more triglycerides for energy whereas high intensity sports (like BB) will utilize more glycogen for a primary energy source, so we don't need as much fat as another type of athlete.

Carb usage scales with intensity yes. But that is from a performance standpoint. Not everyone does super high volume training when they're dieting. Normal volume resistance training isn't tremendously glycogen depleting (you can look at studies). But assuming high volume training, then performance will scale accordingly with a higher carb intake, yes.

If you don't have the carbs scaling with your training volume then yes, performance will likely suffer.

thus we will look leaner without the additional fat...theoretically...because our calorie levels will be more appropriate to our energy output...

You just moved into how one looks, from how one performs.

They are not necessarily the same.

also, its prob why so many strength/bb athletes are more prone to getting fat, we use mostly glycogen stores for energy and a minor amount of body fat stores so we don't need as much as fat as we think we do.

Actually, it's an issue of calories, not a specific macronutrient. No macro has any predisposition for fat gain in a caloric deficit, just like weight loss is not determined by substrate utilization, but by end-0f-day energy deficits. (you can also look at published research on this). If someone is getting fat, they have more energy coming in (nutrition) regardless of what macronutrient it's from vs going out (exercise).

A good comparison is with interval training - uses more glycogen/carbs during a workout than does traditional steady state cardio, yet is effective for fat loss nonetheless. The more 'carbs' you use during training the less you tend to use when you're not training. The more fat you use when you're training, the less you tend to use when you're not training. Either way, it tends to balance out at the end of a 24-hour period, bringing it all back to the importance of a caloric deficit.

Melanson EL, et al. Effect of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and nutrient oxidation. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Mar;92(3):1045-52.

Saris WH, Schrauwen P. Substrate oxidation differences between high- and low-intensity exercise are compensated over 24 hours in obese men. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. June; 28 (6): 759-65.

Glycogen is used during high intensity activity. Sitting here typing this, I'm not using glycogen, and that represents the majority of most people's day.

but science is a good place to start for an answer

It sure is.

Bottom line - there is no one best methodology as evidenced by the wide variety of successful competitors. You do what works best for you. That's my opinion anyway.

powergirl

10-19-2008, 01:48 PM

i was too busy eating peanut butter (aka my fats for the day) to type so much but that's great of you to clarify eriK. LOL. sorry about the typo, some people get my name wrong too, but as long as it starts with a 'z' i'm usually ok, otherwise its gets complicated...

good info -- hope you're enjoying your off-season btw athena :p

luvdairon

10-19-2008, 03:11 PM

what is considered high volume training, in which a higher carb diet would be appropriate/ called for in order to achieve strength/muscle/mass gains?

Scarl3tbutt3rfly

10-19-2008, 03:24 PM

what is considered high volume training, in which a higher carb diet would be appropriate/ called for in order to achieve strength/muscle/mass gains?

Im curious about this as well.

chicky9914

10-19-2008, 04:05 PM

even after doing legs and eating exact same foods you will often weigh more the next day

Thanks Suzanne. I know my legs always look puffy the day after legs, but I didn't realize that the difference was enough to make the school jump a little. Very interesting. Thank you!

Scarl3tbutt3rfly

10-19-2008, 07:29 PM

I was curious what you recommend in regards to training abs to maintain a tiny waist. I know ultimately alot comes down to diet, genetics, etc. But in regards to training, what kind of frequency do you feel is best. Use weight or go for high reps, and what you take is on training obliques (either with weight or no weight).

I know in general weighted obliques is a no no if you want to not increase your waistline. But is it a good idea to still do twists or oblique work that uses no weight to tighten? Or is that even something you can do?

Does training with heavier weight in general(when working all bodyparts) result in larger waistline, due to using your abs/obliques for stabilization more often?

Or does having a tiny waist in the end just come down to genetics?...

Erik

10-19-2008, 08:16 PM

what is considered high volume training, in which a higher carb diet would be appropriate/ called for in order to achieve strength/muscle/mass gains?

Same luvdairon as on my board?

Generally speaking I'm referring to the more traditional bodybuilding, bodypart-type split training where a significant volume of work is being done in each workout.

But you're asking in the context of making gains, as opposed to dieting down, so carbs are more often than not going to be your friend. “Bulking” on low carbs tends to suck for the most part. You just want to ideally time the biggest intake of them with periods of heightened insulin sensitivity – morning, around workouts, etc. So, I think more carbs are always appropriate in an offseason where the goal is more development. That doesn't mean an absolute truckload if you don't tend to tolerate them (poor glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity), but I don't think you want to be 'low carb' per se.

In terms of volume, there are other factors as well – use of drugs for example. They help with training recovery, so you can potentially handle more work (or some say tolerate a higher level of intensity without recourse) without negative effect. There is a limit to how much volume you can do however – more may be better from a development standpoint ... but only up to a point, and then it becomes a negative. That is going to vary from person to person. Pay attention to your subjective measures of recovery and even consider incorporating regular unloading/deloading weeks into your program where you're reducing volume and/or intensity for a week.

Optimal growth comes from the right balance, of overall training volume, (work), intensity (ie. tension), and fatigue.

Both the heavier, lower rep, longer rest interval strength-focused work and the lighter (relatively speaking), moderate-to-high rep, shorter rest interval (pump/fatigue stuff) have their place in training geared towards gains. (stimulation of both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic growth)

Some research suggests 25-50 reps twice a week for a body-part is plenty – so around 50-100 reps/part/week – ballpark!! That's a big range – some can go to the top and then some, some will need lower volume or face issues with recovery – again, in natural trainees, focusing on growth and eating enough to support new growth. Steroids change the equation.

You want to be basically be doing enough volume to stimulate an adaptation – not as much as you can possibly handle (similar to my thoughts on cardio – do as much as is necessary for results; not as much as you can tolerate).

Hard question to answer with specifics. I hope you got something out of this.

luvdairon

10-20-2008, 12:21 AM

Same luvdairon as on my board?

Generally speaking I'm referring to the more traditional bodybuilding, bodypart-type split training where a significant volume of work is being done in each workout.

But you're asking in the context of making gains, as opposed to dieting down, so carbs are more often than not going to be your friend. “Bulking” on low carbs tends to suck for the most part. You just want to ideally time the biggest intake of them with periods of heightened insulin sensitivity – morning, around workouts, etc. So, I think more carbs are always appropriate in an offseason where the goal is more development. That doesn't mean an absolute truckload if you don't tend to tolerate them (poor glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity), but I don't think you want to be 'low carb' per se.

In terms of volume, there are other factors as well – use of drugs for example. They help with training recovery, so you can potentially handle more work (or some say tolerate a higher level of intensity without recourse) without negative effect. There is a limit to how much volume you can do however – more may be better from a development standpoint ... but only up to a point, and then it becomes a negative. That is going to vary from person to person. Pay attention to your subjective measures of recovery and even consider incorporating regular unloading/deloading weeks into your program where you're reducing volume and/or intensity for a week.

Optimal growth comes from the right balance, of overall training volume, (work), intensity (ie. tension), and fatigue.

Both the heavier, lower rep, longer rest interval strength-focused work and the lighter (relatively speaking), moderate-to-high rep, shorter rest interval (pump/fatigue stuff) have their place in training geared towards gains. (stimulation of both myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic growth)

Some research suggests 25-50 reps twice a week for a body-part is plenty – so around 50-100 reps/part/week – ballpark!! That's a big range – some can go to the top and then some, some will need lower volume or face issues with recovery – again, in natural trainees, focusing on growth and eating enough to support new growth. Steroids change the equation.

You want to be basically be doing enough volume to stimulate an adaptation – not as much as you can possibly handle (similar to my thoughts on cardio – do as much as is necessary for results; not as much as you can tolerate).

Hard question to answer with specifics. I hope you got something out of this.

Yup, same one as on your board! Thanks so much for that explanation... makes total sense. I'm natural but I tend to recovery pretty fast so I am able to train pretty high volume, which is why I probably find I need a good deal of carbs to keep gaining strength and mass and feel good overall.

Suzanne

10-20-2008, 02:14 AM

Thanks Suzanne. I know my legs always look puffy the day after legs, but I didn't realize that the difference was enough to make the school jump a little. Very interesting. Thank you!

I have played with the scale alot more to research what happens to me

i have even found if i weigh at 5am when Chase gets up then go back to bed and weigh again at 6:30 am i am less so it really goes to show there is alot of flux and the scale is just one minor tool (remind of of this during prep when i am pms and irrational lol)

SBT

10-20-2008, 02:17 AM

I have played with the scale alot more to research what happens to me

i have even found if i weigh at 5am when Chase gets up then go back to bed and weigh again at 6:30 am i am less so it really goes to show there is alot of flux and the scale is just one minor tool (remind of of this during prep when i am pms and irrational lol)

Too funny!!! That is the SAME THING that I do too... so exactly why I use the scale as strictly a reference point! :)

Sure enough though after a leg day I typically go up a lb, used to notice the same thing when I would use multiple splenda/crystal light packs etc.

Erik

10-20-2008, 01:32 PM

I have played with the scale alot more to research what happens to me

i have even found if i weigh at 5am when Chase gets up then go back to bed and weigh again at 6:30 am i am less so it really goes to show there is alot of flux and the scale is just one minor tool (remind of of this during prep when i am pms and irrational lol)

Exactly.

The scale is just one piece of information - telling you only what you weigh, and nothing about the composition of bodyweight (fat, muscle, water).

It's information, but information without context is useless.

Suzanne

10-20-2008, 02:10 PM

I am looking forward to you rresponse to the question about abs i have wide waist so need to do all i can to make it small and keep form getting wider

gabjo02

10-20-2008, 09:46 PM

Hi Erik,

Ok I think I have been following so far and your information on this site has been great!
I am wondering when preparing nutrition information for your clients, do you also consider age into the equation?

In other words, I have noticed that as I age, everything is changing including recovery from workouts, rebounding from cheats and contest preps etc...

Erik

10-20-2008, 11:59 PM

Hi Erik,

Ok I think I have been following so far and your information on this site has been great!

Thanks. I'm glad. :)

I am wondering when preparing nutrition information for your clients, do you also consider age into the equation?

It does technically factor in yes. If you look at the more complicated predictive equations they do have an age component. Of course there are assumptions inherent to them.

Metabolism tends to slow a bit with age, so this can affect the correct amount of calories given.

As well, glucose tolerance can also change with age.

This really comes down to just ironing out the details for a given person and troubleshooting and adjusting it from there.

In other words, I have noticed that as I age, everything is changing including recovery from workouts, rebounding from cheats and contest preps etc...

Completely understandable. Not abnormal IMO.

Badgergrl

10-21-2008, 02:06 AM

Erik-
What supplements, if any, do you recommend for cortisol suppression?

SBT

10-21-2008, 02:23 AM

I am looking forward to you rresponse to the question about abs i have wide waist so need to do all i can to make it small and keep form getting wider

BUMP to that one!!! As I also have a wide waist (well straight up and down torso) but also need to build up my abs without looking "blocky"

Erik

10-21-2008, 03:02 AM

I was curious what you recommend in regards to training abs to maintain a tiny waist. I know ultimately alot comes down to diet, genetics, etc.

Ultimately, yes.

But in regards to training, what kind of frequency do you feel is best. Use weight or go for high reps, and what you take is on training obliques (either with weight or no weight).

I don't really see the necessity of direct oblique training to be honest. Not beyond developing more muscular endurance (and subsequent core stability) that is.

As for training, muscles either grow or shrink - there is no in between. Well, I guess 'maintain their current state' is the third option. So, your training is dictated by those goals. If someone needs more abdominal hypertrophy - so that their rectus abdominus actually 'pops' more, then they need to train them accordingly.

If they're just trying to maintain current abdominal development, basic maintenance work is fine. Doing sets of 50 - that does nothing. No one does 50 rep tricep sets. Some movements should be done with resistance, some not.

I know in general weighted obliques is a no no if you want to not increase your waistline. But is it a good idea to still do twists or oblique work that uses no weight to tighten? Or is that even something you can do?

How does twisting, 'tighten'? I don't see how that would work.

Does training with heavier weight in general(when working all bodyparts) result in larger waistline, due to using your abs/obliques for stabilization more often?

This is debatable and different people will have different opinions on this one - there's my disclaimer. :LOLOL:

IMO, unless you for some genetic reason have hyper-responsive oblique muscles, heavy loads should not detract one bit from your waist. Honestly, I train as many people heavy as i can. Two examples from this board would be Noel and JennieH - both very, very strong who do a lot of squatting and deadlifting ... and well, the proof is in the pictures. They've got little waists.

There isn't any detraction from their physique.

Or does having a tiny waist in the end just come down to genetics?...

It's going to come down to structure first and foremost. Some people just have a smaller bone structure through that area than others. Then you have the illusionary effect that other bodyparts play in the role - hips (how linear you are through the waist into the hips - tends to take away from the waist - look like a plug), how broad your clavicles are, how well developed your shoulders and lats are, etc.

You obviously can't control the structure, so at that point, as everyone already knows, it's a matter of doing what you can to create the illusion. Fuller lats, rounder delts, nice quad sweep, etc.

Regardless of goals, I think it's wise to include movements like side planks, planks (and variations), Pallof Presses (trains core to resist rotation), etc., as they build muscular endurance in key core stabilizers. Movements like reverse crunches help correct a common postural problem - anterior pelvic tilt (also characertized by short/tight hip flexors and subsequently weak glutes - the latter, not what any competitor wants - you want your glutes firing when you train). We use a ton of different ab exercises - some more metabolic in nature than others. Rarely do we do things like floor crunches, etc.

Hope that helps somewhat. :)

Erik

10-21-2008, 03:09 AM

used to notice the same thing when I would use multiple splenda/crystal light packs etc.

Not a question here, but I thought I'd comment on this too.

This is something I've recently seen a pattern with - those who consume the most sweeteners (stevia excluded) tend to experience:

1. More daily bodyweight fluctuations (water related obviously)

2. More water retenton

3. Intestinal bloating

We have a big thread on my board on Diet Pop, Splenda and Aspartame and it's been really interesting to see the results people have had from dropping back on these ingredients. We're talking a quick 2-3lb (one even 4) drop in weight, which doesn't return. Just an overall better 'feeling'.

Probably doesn't have the same effect on everyone of course, but if you're someone who experiences this, this might be an area to look at for you.

The other issue with high use of things like splenda and aspartame is that they're acidic in nature. We already consume lots of protein which already has a strong acid load. When the body's pH is tipped in favor of an acidic state, it has negative effect on overall body functioning - potential negative effects on bone health, thyroid and subsequently metabolism, etc.

So, some have either cut way back, or switched to stevia (an alkaline compound) and have noted positives. In the end, it's most likely a case of exercising moderation.

High vegetable consumption is also great for more than the obvious reasons - strong alkaline presence to counter the acidic nature of the rest of our diets.

Erik

10-21-2008, 03:21 AM

Erik-
What supplements, if any, do you recommend for cortisol suppression?

Due to abnormal cortisol elevation? That's probably the only time I'd look there.

If the source of the stressor can't be removed/reduced, the only thing I've ever seen with some positives behind it is PS - phosphatidyl serine - probably one most of us have heard when cortisol gets brought up.

Dosing around 800mg/day has been shown to blunt stress-related cortisol release.

I remember during a time of intense stress I used this and as odd as it sounds, it did seem to take the edge off. :shrug:

Scarl3tbutt3rfly

10-21-2008, 03:17 PM

Thanks for your response to the ab question. Very helpful. I had been getting so worried about lifting heavy on certain things, namely squats and deadlifts, so good to know that shouldnt be as big a concern as I thought. One of my goals is working on my abs for a more abdominal definition, and the fear of widening my waist made me fearful of doing so too. (especially with doing weighted exercises).

jlay

10-21-2008, 07:02 PM

What are Pallof Presses? Do you have a video?

Erik

10-21-2008, 07:05 PM

What are Pallof Presses? Do you have a video?

Sure (if not clear, just ask). You have to try it to appreciate it.

Q_rA0k1DS3k

jlay

10-21-2008, 07:21 PM

Sure (if not clear, just ask). You have to try it to appreciate it.

Q_rA0k1DS3k

Thanks! Maybe it is the angle that the video was being shot, but it looks like a pulling motion to me.

Erik

10-21-2008, 07:30 PM

Thanks! Maybe it is the angle that the video was being shot, but it looks like a pulling motion to me.

Nope.

You're standing away from a pulley - perpendicular to it. Starting position, in an athletic stance, has you holding the handle close to your chest. From this point you're going to straighten your arms and push straight out. Because the lever arm lengthens here, you're going to feel a strong contraction in one of the oblique muscles as the tendency is for the weight to pull your hands in the direction of the weight stack. So you're pushing out focusing on resisting the rotational pull you're going to feel, pausing in that position to increase the challenge, and then returning to the starting position.

You can make it harder by narrowing your stance, using more weight, pausing for longer periods at extension, etc.

jlay

10-21-2008, 08:09 PM

Nope.

You're standing away from a pulley - perpendicular to it. Starting position, in an athletic stance, has you holding the handle close to your chest. From this point you're going to straighten your arms and push straight out. Because the lever arm lengthens here, you're going to feel a strong contraction in one of the oblique muscles as the tendency is for the weight to pull your hands in the direction of the weight stack. So you're pushing out focusing on resisting the rotational pull you're going to feel, pausing in that position to increase the challenge, and then returning to the starting position.

You can make it harder by narrowing your stance, using more weight, pausing for longer periods at extension, etc.

Alright, I gotcha. I went back & found another video too, that made it make more sense. Thanks so much! I'll have to try it!

AmyKempfer

10-21-2008, 11:32 PM

Hi Erik, I'm a friend of Neely's from over on figureathlete and I read some of the stuff on your website and forums....just wanted to say :respect: to you! Love your feedback!

Erik

10-22-2008, 12:09 AM

Hi Erik, I'm a friend of Neely's from over on figureathlete and I read some of the stuff on your website and forums....just wanted to say :respect: to you! Love your feedback!

Hey Amy - we've talked once or twice - you don't remember? :LOLOL: You asked me some questions about certifications over on my board.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

specialk1067

10-22-2008, 11:16 AM

AmyKempfer

10-22-2008, 02:56 PM

Hey Amy - we've talked once or twice - you don't remember? :LOLOL: You asked me some questions about certifications over on my board.

Thanks for the feedback. :)

Of course I remember! I didn't know if you would, you probably talk to alot more people than I do!

livestrong21

10-22-2008, 03:44 PM

hi erik :waving:

I've been reading all your responses on here and have checked out both of your websites...:bowdown: I wish you lived close to me!!

I’m just starting down the road towards my first competition but I have the opposite problem than most girls, I need to put on more mass, not lean down. I'm about 5'6 and I weigh 110 lbs. with a bf % around 10. I just had my training switched up because what I was doing obviously wasn’t working...probably because I was doing too much cardio :rolleyes: ( 60 minutes a day a little excessive? :nuts: I know. I believe I was also severely overtraining... often doing 25 plus sets in one workout AND working legs 3X a week (you are sooooo doing this :banghead: right now). I was told to completely eliminate cardio and cut my sets down to no more than 17 MAX. I have been doing pretty good so far, I was also taking in too much protein at about 200 grams and not enough carbs. So I changed my diet to a 30/50/20 split, where it was about an 40/30/30 now im getting about 175 g. of protein 200-250g. of carbs and 50g. of fat. I’m not slaughtering my muscles in the gym...and they haven’t disappeared yet, imagine that! Haha but I’m still doing about 30 minutes of cardio (low intensity) to keep my bf in check.

I guess my question is how does this look to you and can you offer me any other recommendations for adding lean body mass?

Erik

10-22-2008, 04:09 PM

Hi Erik, i am new to competing and my first post you had replied about my off season looking more like pre contest. This is my issue, i competed in my first contest in May 2008 and it took me 5 months to go from 192 down to 158-160 and i still wasnt very lean (especially lower body).

I want to compete again in March 2009 and im afraid i wont have enough time because i rebounded back up to 190. I have been getting alot of good advice from everyone, my problem is if it took me 5 months the first time and i'm back to where i started, shouldnt i start again now? Im really confused.

Yes, starting now would be good (considering I'd assume you want to get leaner than the last time). Better to be ready early than to have to play crazy catch up because you're behind schedule.

I had a nutrionist/trainer for the contest but i feel i can look alot better. Should i be doing 2x a day cardio and lifting heavy or high reps?

If you've read pretty much anything I've written you'll know I am opposed to double cardio programs 95% of the time.

If you want to keep the muscle you have, keep lifting heavy. What builds it, keeps it, and if you don't use it, you'll lose it.

Read this for a general idea

LINK (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/optimal-weight-training-while-dieting.htm)

i'll stay with heavy training/no cardio for about a week then i panick and start doing more cardio higher reps. thanks for any suggestions. kathy

High volume cardio and high reps makes no sense to me. That's a nice environment for muscle loss unless you're assisted.

Doesn't sound like you have much of a program here. Put something together, follow it for two weeks, assess your results, and adjust it accordingly if it's not yielding the desired result, or maintain the status quo if it is and then reassess again two weeks later.

jlay

10-22-2008, 07:11 PM

Erik

10-22-2008, 09:49 PM

Any recommendations for growing calves? I know calves can take a long time to grow. Also, how often do you think they should be trained & how many reps? I've been doing 2xs/wk with reps of 8 & trying to do them really slow.

First off, you'd need to ensure you're actually consuming enough calories for anything to grow for starters - so if you're dieting, it's not likely going to happen.

Add to that the fact that calves tend to be one of those genetic blessings ... or curses. That's not to say they can't be improved upon in a big way however.

Give the DC style of calf training a shot - it's not the most pleasant experience mind you.

Basically calves are hit every 5 days (on average, so we'll call it twice per week). After warm ups, it's only one working set to failure. BUT the difficulty is in the details ...

The tempo is 5/15/1 - 5 seconds eccentric, 15 second pause in the stretch, and a 1 second concentric - 21 seconds per rep. 10-15 reps later and it's pretty darn nasty. Calves are under tension for a long time.

Seated calf raises and calf raises in the leg press tend to lend themselves well to these parameters - standing calf machines, not so much (lots of slipping)

Badgergrl

10-22-2008, 11:16 PM

Hi Erik :waving:

Do you know anything about prolotherapy? If so, do you think it would be helpful for my torn ham? I'm desparate for anything that will help after a doc told me today that I was looking at 6 more months recovery time.

Erik

10-23-2008, 12:08 AM

Hi Erik :waving:

Do you know anything about prolotherapy?

It's an injection of things like Traumeel into the joints. Normally done by MDs and some naturopaths.

If so, do you think it would be helpful for my torn ham? I'm desparate for anything that will help after a doc told me today that I was looking at 6 more months recovery time.

What's actually torn specifically? This is the MD diagnosis right?

Prolotherapy is just for joints but I've heard the injections can help muscle injuries together with ART.

Badgergrl

10-23-2008, 01:01 AM

It's an injection of things like Traumeel into the joints. Normally done by MDs and some naturopaths.

What's actually torn specifically? This is the MD diagnosis right?

Prolotherapy is just for joints but I've heard the injections can help muscle injuries together with ART.

I think the tear is at the ischial tuberosity?...right under my butt, at the hip.

SBT

10-23-2008, 01:02 AM

What are your thoughts on cardio in the off-season??

As I know you have been asked several times, and made several posts about what they are in the in-season (or while dieting)

Erik

10-23-2008, 01:50 AM

I’m just starting down the road towards my first competition but I have the opposite problem than most girls, I need to put on more mass, not lean down. I'm about 5'6 and I weigh 110 lbs. with a bf % around 10. I just had my training switched up because what I was doing obviously wasn’t working...probably because I was doing too much cardio :rolleyes: ( 60 minutes a day a little excessive? :nuts: I know.

Given your stated muscle building goals, yes, that's not going to help you one bit. That becomes a significant caloric sink you have to overcome with more food.

I believe I was also severely overtraining... often doing 25 plus sets in one workout AND working legs 3X a week (you are sooooo doing this :banghead: right now).

:LOLOL: Maybe a little of that. But at least you've realized where you were going wrong. That just doesn't work at all.

I was told to completely eliminate cardio and cut my sets down to no more than 17 MAX.

If you're having a hard time gaining, yes, I'd probably drop the cardio down until you start to see an upward trend in bodyweight. That would indicate you have more coming in, than going out.

What's the magic behind the 17?

I have been doing pretty good so far, I was also taking in too much protein at about 200 grams and not enough carbs. So I changed my diet to a 30/50/20 split, where it was about an 40/30/30 now im getting about 175 g. of protein 200-250g. of carbs and 50g. of fat.

I don't pay much attention to macronutrient percentages as they're pretty much irrelevant (telling you simply the relative contribution of each macronutrient to another). Absolute quantities, representing what you're actually eating, is what's important.

So by your numbers calories are b/w 1950 and 2150. At 110, you should see an upward climb at that intake.

I’m not slaughtering my muscles in the gym...and they haven’t disappeared yet, imagine that! Haha but I’m still doing about 30 minutes of cardio (low intensity) to keep my bf in check.

It doesn't work that way.

If you're doing cardio to keep your bodyfat in check, you're also potentially keeping your muscle gains in check. It's a caloric sink and a form of expenditure for you - nothing else. If that's what keeps body fat in check (basically not having excess cals kicking around to be stored as bodyfat) then how does it allow for muscle gains (which require excess calories to be available for both the creation and maintenance of new muscle).

Typically those who try to not gain bodyfat in the pursuit of muscular gains ... never look any different.

Read these:

Part 1 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/09/18/bulking-questions-and-answers/)
Part 2 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/09/24/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-2/)
Part 3 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/10/03/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-3/)
Part 4 (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/blog/2008/10/13/bulking-questions-and-answers-part-4/)

specialk1067

10-23-2008, 09:51 AM

Yes, starting now would be good (considering I'd assume you want to get leaner than the last time). Better to be ready early than to have to play crazy catch up because you're behind schedule.

If you've read pretty much anything I've written you'll know I am opposed to double cardio programs 95% of the time.

If you want to keep the muscle you have, keep lifting heavy. What builds it, keeps it, and if you don't use it, you'll lose it.

Read this for a general idea

LINK (http://leanbodiesconsulting.com/optimal-weight-training-while-dieting.htm)

High volume cardio and high reps makes no sense to me. That's a nice environment for muscle loss unless you're assisted.

Doesn't sound like you have much of a program here. Put something together, follow it for two weeks, assess your results, and adjust it accordingly if it's not yielding the desired result, or maintain the status quo if it is and then reassess again two weeks later.

Thank You. Kathy

bree marsh

10-23-2008, 09:59 AM

AmyKempfer

10-23-2008, 05:39 PM

Hey Erik!
I just wanted your opinion on KETO/high fat, 0 carb type diets?
Until recently, I had not heard of anyone using this approach in our sport.
Your thoughts?
Thanks!
Amy

jlay

10-23-2008, 06:20 PM

or RUN;)

but probably not a good idea if you are trying to bulk!

Really? I thought that would just burn up the muscle if doing long distance. I know sprinters have great calves usually though. But, yeah you're right I'm keeping cardio very minimal right now! I have a fast metabolism as it is anyway.

AmyKempfer

10-23-2008, 06:28 PM

Really? I thought that would just burn up the muscle if doing long distance. I know sprinters have great calves usually though. But, yeah you're right I'm keeping cardio very minimal right now! I have a fast metabolism as it is anyway.

My friend Dave grew up in the hills of Northern, KY....he has INCREDIBLE calves from mowing grass up and down those big hills when he was a kid. People ask him all the time if his calves are implants!

Sorry for the hi-jack, had to share...

Erik

10-23-2008, 08:56 PM

Really? I thought that would just burn up the muscle if doing long distance. I know sprinters have great calves usually though. But, yeah you're right I'm keeping cardio very minimal right now! I have a fast metabolism as it is anyway.

:shrug:

I don't think distance running is the key to big calves. Maybe if it's a constant climb it would help but ... :shrug:

Erik

10-24-2008, 01:01 AM

What are your thoughts on cardio in the off-season??

The short answer is ... it depends.

I will say however that when I see, or rather read, of people doing 45-60 minute cardio sessions in the OFF SEASON, I want to :banghead: Even when I see 30 minutes 6-7x/week. It's the OFF SEASON. If you're doing this kind of cardio in the offseason, where do you go when you start dieting?

I don't have a problem with some low intensity maintenance sessions per week of reasonable duration - as long as it's not interfering with what you're trying to do with your offseason. LI cardio can actually be rather stimulatory to the appetite and for some, just having the appetite to eat enough is a challenge. So there's a plus to it.

Recognize that cardio in the offseason represents a caloric sink you must overcome if you're wanting to end up with a net positive caloric balance. You're expending energy so you need to eat more.

The idea of doing cardio in the offseason to keep bodyfat at bay doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Fat loss or gain is about the caloric balance at the end of the day. Cardio creates expenditure. If it's enough expenditure to have you NOT in a surplus, then you're unlikely to have enough resources to gain any size either since you NEED to be in a surplus.

The other potential issue is endurance adaptations to the muscle fibers. Muscles are malleable and adapt to the demands placed on them. Endurance qualities do nothing for a physique-conscious person striving for better development.

Embrace the offseason and use it for what it's for.

As Helle said in another thread:

You should have the same approach with off-season as with pre-contest. It's a work period. A lot of people tend to just relax and train casually, and then when they've had enough they wanna diet for a show. Take your off-season seriously. It's a more important season than pre-contest, its here you build your physique. Eat quality food your body can use for building material, look at the clock, always eat within 3 hours. Dont fill your body with crap-food. Train hard. It's a working period. Pre-contest is just peeling the layer off to show what you've accomplished in the off-season.

Somebody once told me: " you have to learn to like to be soft" - very true, and it doesnt have to be a bad soft look - muscles but feminine We cant just strive for competition look all the time. Every season has its gifts

Suzanne

10-24-2008, 01:11 AM

for some, just having the appetite to eat enough is a challenge.

I never have that prob i think i could easily eat twice what i do and not have trouble unless it is more chicken blech! Thank God for Saturdays!!! and coldstone

I am doing 30 min X 4 days ss

KP DIVA

10-24-2008, 01:27 AM

I never have that prob i think i could easily eat twice what i do and not have trouble unless it is more chicken blech! Thank God for Saturdays!!! and coldstone

Me 2!! If I don't have an appetite...something is definitely wrong!! Don't even mention coldstone...it's like legal crack! I don't need to eat it period...I loose all self control!

chicky9914

10-24-2008, 02:29 AM

Yeah, I was a fat kid. I can eat like a football player. Of course that's just quanity...I eat good, healthy food :)

specialk1067

10-24-2008, 11:58 AM

Hey Erik., well this is the workout and diet i used for my last contest: i went from 192 to 158-160. It took me 5 months. Like i was telling you., i really would like to be alot leaner so maybe you can help me tweak a little. Thanks.

Weeks: 1-12 (Same diet straight for 12 weeks)
Meal 1: 6 egg whites/ 1/2/ cup. oats/ 1/2/ cup strawberries
meal 2: 6 oz ground turkey, 1/2 cup oats
Meal 3: 6 oz lean red meat, 1 cup veggies, 2 kiwis
meal 4: 6 oz salmon, veggies or salad
meal 5: 6 fish (orange rougy usually, veggies)
meal 6: egg whites (if still hungry)

Only used olive oil & balsamic vinegar, splenda, crystal light and sometimes non-dairy creamer in my coffiee.

By the end of the 12 weeks., i was at 170.

45 min. cardio in a.m.
weights in afternoon
40 min. cardio in pm.

Training: Legs were 2x per week., supersetting squats, leg ext.,leg curls. usually reps between 20-25. and also did a 3-5 minute sprint on bike in between supersets.

all upperbody exercises were done for 15-20 reps., about 4 sets per exercise.

i did 4 days on 1 day off. i was allowed one cheat meal per week. let me know what you think. thanks again, kathy

Erik

10-24-2008, 03:17 PM

Hey Erik!
I just wanted your opinion on KETO/high fat, 0 carb type diets?
Until recently, I had not heard of anyone using this approach in our sport.
Your thoughts?
Thanks!
Amy

Hi Amy,

Keto/high fat, etc are just one tool in your dietary toolbox. Structured correctly, they can work just like a polar opposite approach - high carb/low fat. It really depends on the person.

Any diet that puts you in a caloric deficit, provides sufficient protein and EFAs and is not retarded, should work. The "X factor", once the aforementioned is in place is what you do with your energy-yielding nutrients - your carb and your fat intake.

Some people will fare better on lower carb diets for a variety of reasons - better hunger control, more even daily energy, overall better feeling due to the fact that they're at least somewhat insulin resistant.

At the same time, others will feel much better on a higher carb/lower fat type diet and will feel awful on keto-style diets.

Again, coming back to individual glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity/insulin resistance issues.

There is however, no magical metabolic/fat burning advantage to keto-style diets. Again, one effective tool. Nor is there ever one best diet for all dieters.

It's a case of individualization.

Erik

10-24-2008, 03:22 PM

Weeks: 1-12 (Same diet straight for 12 weeks)

Really? That alone seems odd. Mind you, if it's working the entire time, so be it.

Meal 1: 6 egg whites/ 1/2/ cup. oats/ 1/2/ cup strawberries
meal 2: 6 oz ground turkey, 1/2 cup oats
Meal 3: 6 oz lean red meat, 1 cup veggies, 2 kiwis
meal 4: 6 oz salmon, veggies or salad
meal 5: 6 fish (orange rougy usually, veggies)
meal 6: egg whites (if still hungry)

The above isn't very useful without more information - namely caloric intake as well as what this adds up to in terms of protein, carbs, and fat.

45 min. cardio in a.m.
weights in afternoon
40 min. cardio in pm.

I've written enough about this one now, so I'll leave the cardio alone. :)

Training: Legs were 2x per week., supersetting squats, leg ext.,leg curls. usually reps between 20-25. and also did a 3-5 minute sprint on bike in between supersets.

Why so many reps? Where's the heavy work?

all upperbody exercises were done for 15-20 reps., about 4 sets per exercise.

Same question.

i did 4 days on 1 day off. i was allowed one cheat meal per week. let me know what you think. thanks again, kathy

I'm not going to say it doesn't work, because you dropped 20 or so pounds in 12 weeks, so surely it did. I just think there are more efficient ways of getting it done.

KP DIVA

10-24-2008, 03:40 PM

Hi Amy,
coming back to individual glucose tolerance/insulin sensitivity/insulin resistance issues.

Is there a specific test to determine this?

ErinFL

10-24-2008, 09:44 PM

Erik

10-25-2008, 03:00 AM

Is there a specific test to determine this?

An oral glucose tolerance test (OGTT), a fasted blood insulin test, and a fasted blood glucose test will give you a good idea. You can also get an idea of your pancreatic beta cell function from the above as well. You have people who also oversecrete insulin regardless of sensitivity/resistance.

And sensitivity isn't across the board good just like resistance isn't across the board bad. Unfortunately, we can't choose which tissues are resistance and which are sensitive. Ideally we want insulin sensitive muscles but not insulin sensitive fat cells. We want insulin resistant fat cells, but not insulin resistant muscles. Again, we can't choose that though. Sensitivity tends to apply across the board, as does resistance should that be the state.

Barring that though, how you actually *feel* after high carb meals is a good, albeit rough, indicator as well of insulin sensitivity and secretion.

People with good insulin sensitivity and normal secretion feel great on carbs - they're pumped, they're full, they're energetic, etc.
People with poor insulin sensitivity and hyper secretion are at the other end - energy crashes, dragging, bloated instead of pumped, etc.

Incidently, GH reduces insulin sensitivity/promotes insulin resistance, which is one of the ways it helps with fat loss as insulin resistant fat cells is a good thing.

specialk1067

10-25-2008, 12:00 PM

Really? That alone seems odd. Mind you, if it's working the entire time, so be it.

Yes. She changed it after the 12 weeks. took the fruit out. then a few weeks after changed to a few days with carbs, few days without.

The above isn't very useful without more information - namely caloric intake as well as what this adds up to in terms of protein, carbs, and fat.

I've written enough about this one now, so I'll leave the cardio alone. :)

Why so many reps? Where's the heavy work?

I dont know Erik. I'm new to this, i boxed for 10 yrs so never really lifted any heavy weights. My coach for the contest is a female bodybuilder. She looks good and she has several other clients that i know that also look good, so i figured she knows what she is talking about.

Same question.

I'm not going to say it doesn't work, because you dropped 20 or so pounds in 12 weeks, so surely it did. I just think there are more efficient ways of getting it done.

Yes it did, but again, i want to come in leaner. My legs were still holding alot of fat. And my lower abs were still chunky. She never measured my bodyfat, we just went by what i looked like. I really want to get shredded. I would like to know how much you charge for online training. I went on your website but didnt see any program costs. I also felt training with a woman would be more beneficial, but alot of people give you kudos. :DI dont know Erik. I'm new to this, i boxed for 10 yrs so never really lifted any heavy weights. My coach for the contest is a female bodybuilder. She looks good and she has several other clients that i know that also look good, so i figured she knew what she was talking about.

Suzanne

10-25-2008, 01:56 PM

Yes it did, but again, i want to come in leaner. My legs were still holding alot of fat. And my lower abs were still chunky. She never measured my bodyfat, we just went by what i looked like. I really want to get shredded. I would like to know how much you charge for online training. I went on your website but didnt see any program costs. I also felt training with a woman would be more beneficial, but alot of people give you kudos. :DI dont know Erik. I'm new to this, i boxed for 10 yrs so never really lifted any heavy weights. My coach for the contest is a female bodybuilder. She looks good and she has several other clients that i know that also look good, so i figured she knew what she was talking about.

you certainly do not need a female for a trainer/nutritionist. Erik has mostly female clients and Jeremy, who i train with has really studied the female physiology, hormones etc.

All because someone looks good themselves does not mean they know nutrition.

Rebecca Lynn Slatt

10-25-2008, 02:55 PM

you certainly do not need a female for a trainer/nutritionist. Erik has mostly female clients and Jeremy, who i train with has really studied the female physiology, hormones etc.

All because someone looks good themselves does not mean they know nutrition.

AGREED X10!!!!

Erik

10-25-2008, 05:00 PM

Hey Erik-
Was re-listening today to an interview w. John Berardi re: the whole G-flux idea-how do you feel about that, and given the whole "do as little cardio as possible" idea does it fit in? It seems good in theory, especially in a mass gaining phase, if adding some cardio would assist in partioning....of course adding the food to overcome that deficit.
Whaddya think?

It doesn't fit in. At least not with my philosophy. Of course, in the end it's all going to come down to caloric balance at the end of the period you're measuring against. It's just energy flux.

You could achieve that same deficit with less cardio and less food or more cardio and more food. To me, it's still the deficit that matters.

Some cardio is good for partitioning - too much just becomes a caloric sink that some can't overcome. Then depending on the type of cardio, duration, frequency, etc., you have the possible fiber adaptations that may come.

But again, since it comes down to surplus vs deficit, it can be a viable approach for sure (as evidenced I'm sure with JB's success with it). If you have the TIME for it, then it might be a viable option. You CAN train too much. He used elite athletes as his case studies to introduce that concept. (people who spent years building up their work capacity)

It's just not my own philosophy. I'm on the other end of the spectrum - least amount necessary, not most you can do.

chicky9914

10-25-2008, 06:22 PM

Erik

10-25-2008, 06:25 PM

specialk1067

10-27-2008, 07:17 PM

Yeah, the whole "so and so looks good so they must know what they're talking about" is a big misconception. If they can train themselves, that's great, but I want someone who can train ME and tell me the HOWs and WHYS of it all. Why are we doing this and why is my body responding this way? The only way you're gonna get that is from someone who has worked with diverse groups of people - short, tall, large, small, you name it, someone who has dedicated themselves to understanding the human body, someone who is constantly looking to better themselves by keeping up to date with the latest research in nutrition and training.

How i came across that trainer was the competition i was competing in the promoter used her as her nutrionist and she looked fabulous. I really feel my trainer was preoccupied with her personal life and really kinda winged it with me. Maybe she also felt that because it was my first contest and really wasnt a big deal that she didnt give me 100%. She trains women who compete in big shows. I know thats no excuse for her, but because it was my first contest, i completely put my faith and confidence in her prep.

Now i'm a little gun shy about hiring another trainer. I mean, what she did for me i could do myself, perhaps not the week b4 contest, but i just felt like i wasnt heard when i voiced my concerns. She just kept telling me dont worry about it., and when i got on stage, i mean i looked great compared to where i started, but for all the cardio and lifting i did., i really expected more.
I mean you could still see the fat on my legs!!!! 5 months of strict dieting(i never cheated i was so foscused) except for my allowed cheat "meal", did all my cardio, never missed a workout! i mean am i nuts or what?

Erik

10-27-2008, 08:14 PM

I really feel my trainer was preoccupied with her personal life and really kinda winged it with me. Maybe she also felt that because it was my first contest and really wasnt a big deal that she didnt give me 100%. She trains women who compete in big shows. I know thats no excuse for her, but because it was my first contest, i completely put my faith and confidence in her prep.

No. Who else she trains is no excuse for her. If you entrusted her with your prep, and everyone's expectations were laid out on the table before hand, and everyone agreed to move forward, then she an obligation to you. She works for you.

but i just felt like i wasnt heard when i voiced my concerns. She just kept telling me dont worry about it.,

I hear this too much.

I was talking to someone the other day about this kind of thing and one of the things i said was along the lines of 'you know more about your body than I do at this point, so it makes sense that I'm going to want to listen to that and pay attention to your experience, and then build upon that - not just go out to left field without any rhyme or reason.'

i mean am i nuts or what?

You might be nuts. You might not be nuts. We can't tell enough from the information provided. :LOLOL:

specialk1067

10-28-2008, 09:55 AM

No. Who else she trains is no excuse for her. If you entrusted her with your prep, and everyone's expectations were laid out on the table before hand, and everyone agreed to move forward, then she an obligation to you. She works for you.

I hear this too much.

I was talking to someone the other day about this kind of thing and one of the things i said was along the lines of 'you know more about your body than I do at this point, so it makes sense that I'm going to want to listen to that and pay attention to your experience, and then build upon that - not just go out to left field without any rhyme or reason.'

You might be nuts. You might not be nuts. We can't tell enough from the information provided. :LOLOL:

HE HE HE!!! I understand what your saying. Well., i am taking your advice so i came up with a program. I am gonna focus on heavy training for the rest of the year. How do you feel about training 1 bodypart per day? i thought i would give this a shot:
I will keep my reps between 6-10 and do 3 exercises per bodypart. Focusing on the basic mass exercises: bench press/deadlifts/squats/rows and also do one shaping exercise: flyes/extensions/leg curls/pulldowns.

I will also do 30 min cardio in a.m. just for my own sanity! lol!!!!

jewelofnile69

10-28-2008, 12:41 PM

How do I feel about it? More often than not, it's my preference. I don't like the traditional carb load - too hit and miss, unless it's been well practiced. That competitors sometimes get it right and sometimes get it wrong (the same competitor) supports that as well.

Beyond that, it's really going to depend on the person's body and what you've learned about it - how they respond to various things, what kind of condition they're in, what kind of look they're hoping for the day of, etc.

I can't lie, I've never heard of this fat loading vs. carb loading concept. Could you explain in more detail and what the benefits are?

DanielleA

10-28-2008, 12:58 PM

Hey Erik! Do your clients use fat burners/thermos? If so, which do you recommend? Do you think we should cycle on and off of them so that our bodies don't get too used to one product? Thanks!

Erik

10-28-2008, 01:09 PM

HE HE HE!!! I understand what your saying. Well., i am taking your advice so i came up with a program. I am gonna focus on heavy training for the rest of the year. How do you feel about training 1 bodypart per day? i thought i would give this a shot:

I don't.

Works ok for the genetically elite and those who 'supplement'. But for every person who does well with it, there are 50 who don't.

Blasting a muscle with huge volume for a workout and then not coming back to it for a week is going to prove to be suboptimal for the majority of trainees. Note, that I'm not saying such a protocol will yield no results (although it can); I'm saying it's not optimal by any stretch for the average trainee.

Doesn't matter how pumped you get, doesn't matter how sore you get - you're not training for pumps and soreness.

Frequency more often than not should be twice per week per bodypart or once every 5 days at the least (assuming no drugs).

I will keep my reps between 6-10 and do 3 exercises per bodypart. Focusing on the basic mass exercises: bench press/deadlifts/squats/rows and also do one shaping exercise: flyes/extensions/leg curls/pulldowns.

It's good to have a focus on the 'big' exercises, so that's good. Focus on getting stronger in those movements.

I will also do 30 min cardio in a.m. just for my own sanity! lol!!!!

Are you dieting?

Erik

10-28-2008, 01:17 PM

Hey Erik! Do your clients use fat burners/thermos? If so, which do you recommend? Do you think we should cycle on and off of them so that our bodies don't get too used to one product? Thanks!

Not as a rule, no. In fact, I never make the recommendation myself. Clients might use them though if they ask my opinion on it first though, but they broach that subject, not me.

Are you talking OTC stuff or 'other'?

Most of the 'fat burners' on the market, do not burn fat - they just don't. They might provide you with some energy, they might help you control your appetite, etc, but they're not technically 'thermogenic' per se.

OTC wise - your best bet is still ephedrine and caffeine. Good energy, good anorectic properties and it definitely helps counter the falling activity of the sympathetic nervous system that occurs with lowered calories and dieting. In that sense it can help maintain a better metabolic rate. Even here, the majority of the effect of EC is anorectic.

In terms of cycling, it's actually the stimulatory effect you'll adapt to (less kick over time), but according to one paper, with EC, the 'thermogenic effect' actually magnifies over time. So if you need the kick you get, cycling on and off is a good idea.

Actually, just being off stimulants in general is a good idea, so it's not something I'd recommend used all the time.

jewelofnile69

10-28-2008, 01:18 PM

I can't lie, I've never heard of this fat loading vs. carb loading concept. Could you explain in more detail and what the benefits are?

Oh, I think I found the answer. I seem to find that the higher good fats work for me while on very low carbs and I do a re-feed every 5-7 days. I didn't do any re-feeds in my last contest prep and my fats and carbs were so low...I thought I might die. I've found that increasing the fats with a planned re-feed here and there has really helped my fat/weight loss and energy levels.

DanielleA

10-28-2008, 01:21 PM

Not as a rule, no. In fact, I never make the recommendation myself. Clients might use them though if they ask my opinion on it first though, but they broach that subject, not me.

Are you talking OTC stuff or 'other'?

Most of the 'fat burners' on the market, do not burn fat - they just don't. They might provide you with some energy, they might help you control your appetite, etc, but they're not technically 'thermogenic' per se.

OTC wise - your best bet is still ephedrine and caffeine. Good energy, good anorectic properties and it definitely helps counter the falling activity of the sympathetic nervous system that occurs with lowered calories and dieting. In that sense it can help maintain a better metabolic rate. Even here, the majority of the effect of EC is anorectic.

In terms of cycling, it's actually the stimulatory effect you'll adapt to (less kick over time), but according to one paper, with EC, the 'thermogenic effect' actually magnifies over time. So if you need the kick you get, cycling on and off is a good idea.

Actually, just being off stimulants in general is a good idea, so it's not something I'd recommend used all the time.

Yes, I was referring to OTC stuff. But since you mention it, what about clen? Frequency/dose? How long is the longest you would have a client use that before cycling off? How long of an "off" period before you can start using it again?

As for ephedra/caffeine, no aspirin with that combo?

Erik

10-28-2008, 01:22 PM

Oh, I think I found the answer. I seem to find that the higher good fats work for me while on very low carbs and I do a re-feed every 5-7 days. I didn't do any re-feeds in my last contest prep and my fats and carbs were so low...I thought I might die. I've found that increasing the fats with a planned re-feed here and there has really helped my fat/weight loss and energy levels.

Different. Aforementioned fat/carb load comments were in the context of the final week.

And are you saying you do refeeds with fat, and not carbs?

jewelofnile69

10-28-2008, 01:34 PM

Different. Aforementioned fat/carb load comments were in the context of the final week.

And are you saying you do refeeds with fat, and not carbs?

No, no:) I do re-feeds with carbs. God, if I didn't get those carb re-feed days, I'd die. I was just wondering what this fat-loading was.

I meant that I just tend to have a higher daily fat intake. Does that make sense?

Erik

10-28-2008, 01:53 PM

Yes, I was referring to OTC stuff. But since you mention it, what about clen? Frequency/dose?

My PERSONAL opinion is that clenbuterol is overrated (not saying it doesn't work obviously) and that over time EC is better. Of course, not everyone will agree with that.

Effects are short lived. But you can start using compounds like ketotifin (or in the absence of that, an OTC anti-histamine product maybe) that prevent/slow down receptor attenuation/promote receptor upregulation. (there are quite a number of studies supporting this effect of ketotifen - does make you sleep though which likely warrants bed time usage).

Standard dosing has been 2 weeks on/2 weeks off, but with ketotifen you can theoretically take it longer/more consistently without the drop off.

The 2 days on/2 days off you see sometimes is flawed - since clen has a rather long half life.

As for ephedra/caffeine, no aspirin with that combo?

Not necessary.

Rebecca Lynn Slatt

10-28-2008, 05:40 PM

Erik

10-28-2008, 08:47 PM

OK so does this mean a person should take antihistamine in conjunction with clenbuterol, or during the time off?

Thank you!

Either could work. You can take keto while using clen - most would just take it in the evening, since it makes you tired.

Erik

10-28-2008, 08:47 PM

No, no:) I do re-feeds with carbs. God, if I didn't get those carb re-feed days, I'd die. I was just wondering what this fat-loading was.

I meant that I just tend to have a higher daily fat intake. Does that make sense?

Yep, thanks for clarifying.

specialk1067

10-28-2008, 09:38 PM

I don't.

Works ok for the genetically elite and those who 'supplement'. But for every person who does well with it, there are 50 who don't.

Blasting a muscle with huge volume for a workout and then not coming back to it for a week is going to prove to be suboptimal for the majority of trainees. Note, that I'm not saying such a protocol will yield no results (although it can); I'm saying it's not optimal by any stretch for the average trainee.

Doesn't matter how pumped you get, doesn't matter how sore you get - you're not training for pumps and soreness.

Frequency more often than not should be twice per week per bodypart or once every 5 days at the least (assuming no drugs).

It's good to have a focus on the 'big' exercises, so that's good. Focus on getting stronger in those movements.

Are you dieting?

I was gonna start my prep now but i think i'm gonna just focus on the heavy weights. Im still gonna try and eat clean and get in 5 meals per day, but i wasnt gonna get strict right now. I know i told you i want to do a contest in March but i think i'm gonna shoot for one in April or May. So., i thought i would be "off season" until end of year then start prep in January.

What do you think about doing a Keto diet during off season? Considering i wont be doing tons of cardio and i'm lifting heavy, would that work? I tend to like fat more than carbs/sugar. Plus i'm not as hungry all the time. When i was dieting for my contest all i thought about was food!! I know u r gonna be hungry but my mind was totally consumed with when am i gonna eat next. idk, is this normal? It just seems when i eat a juicy steak, i dont go looking for something in an hour. To tell you the truth., im not really a big fan of carbs. All i ate during my prep was oatmeal and fruit. I was always craving a steak(with alot of fat on it) or chicken(but mostly the skin) and chiccharone(fried pork skin). Oh, and i could literally drink olive oil!! he he he.

Suzanne

10-28-2008, 11:29 PM

I was gonna start my prep now but i think i'm gonna just focus on the heavy weights. Im still gonna try and eat clean and get in 5 meals per day, but i wasnt gonna get strict right now. I know i told you i want to do a contest in March but i think i'm gonna shoot for one in April or May. So., i thought i would be "off season" until end of year then start prep in January.

What do you think about doing a Keto diet during off season? Considering i wont be doing tons of cardio and i'm lifting heavy, would that work? I tend to like fat more than carbs/sugar. Plus i'm not as hungry all the time. When i was dieting for my contest all i thought about was food!! I know u r gonna be hungry but my mind was totally consumed with when am i gonna eat next. idk, is this normal? It just seems when i eat a juicy steak, i dont go looking for something in an hour. To tell you the truth., im not really a big fan of carbs. All i ate during my prep was oatmeal and fruit. I was always craving a steak(with alot of fat on it) or chicken(but mostly the skin) and chiccharone(fried pork skin). Oh, and i could literally drink olive oil!! he he he.

having carbs does not mean not having steak
i had steak during comp diet all the way through and do not and will not do keto diet
i had steak twice a day during one of my off season plans

jewelofnile69

10-29-2008, 01:00 AM

having carbs does not mean not having steak
i had steak during comp diet all the way through and do not and will not do keto diet
i had steak twice a day during one of my off season plans

I LOVE steak and cannot and will not live without it. Though I do limit it 2-4 weeks out. Then on contest day I usually eat a 4oz steak 2x in the day. Yum!

specialk1067

10-29-2008, 11:19 AM

having carbs does not mean not having steak
i had steak during comp diet all the way through and do not and will not do keto diet
i had steak twice a day during one of my off season plans

Does this whole thing basically just breakdown to calories in versus calories out? How do you figure out your starting point for calories? and the breakdown prot/carb/fat? Ive read for fat loss 10xbodyweight for total calories, then i read 12 x lean bodyweight for calories for fat loss. For my last contest my trainer had me start at 1750 calories but i was also doing cardio 2x per day 40-45 min each session, plus lifting(mostly supersetting). Now i'm going the heavy route and cutting down my cardio., so im afraid to eat! and it also took me 5 months to drop from 192 to 158-160. Sorry for all the ?s., im just trying to figure it out so i can stop the insanity!! he he he.

Suzanne

10-29-2008, 11:41 AM

Does this whole thing basically just breakdown to calories in versus calories out? How do you figure out your starting point for calories? and the breakdown prot/carb/fat? Ive read for fat loss 10xbodyweight for total calories, then i read 12 x lean bodyweight for calories for fat loss. For my last contest my trainer had me start at 1750 calories but i was also doing cardio 2x per day 40-45 min each session, plus lifting(mostly supersetting). Now i'm going the heavy route and cutting down my cardio., so im afraid to eat! and it also took me 5 months to drop from 192 to 158-160. Sorry for all the ?s., im just trying to figure it out so i can stop the insanity!! he he he.

your last trainer wa wrong plain and simple!

lifting heavy will not burn less cal then high reps and will actually boost metab and will help build muscle will then then burn more fat
30lbs can easily take 5 months even done right if you only drop 1-2 lb a week
in my personal opinion you should work on getting your weight to a reasonable distance from comp weight before starting a comp prep
Find your maintenance cals
things like that then start looking into comps

I had a trainer that had me eating 1500 cals and doing 70 min cardio OFFSEASON my body was shutting down and gaining fat
Now i eat 2000-2400 plus a BIG weekly cheat and do 30 min 4 times a week and am LEANER

jewelofnile69

10-29-2008, 12:25 PM

im just trying to figure it out so i can stop the insanity!! he he he.

Believe me, once you start, the insanity will never stop. Just be careful that you don't let the calorie counting, eating healthy, working out, etc, take over your life. We can get way too obsessive over this whole thing and end up making it unhealthy.

Now I'll defer to Erik on actually answering the question part of your post! :) Keep at it though!

Erik

10-29-2008, 02:46 PM

I was gonna start my prep now but i think i'm gonna just focus on the heavy weights.

If you were dissatisfied with your conditioning at your last show, I think it might make more sense to start your prep nice and early to ensure that you have enough time to get to the end goal you're after.

If you've never been to that specific end point yet - all the more reason to start earlier since it's something you've not yet achieved and you just can't predict how it will go when you're trying to get the last fat off.

And there's no reason you can't train heavy while dieting - you should be, if you're goal is maintaining your hard-earned muscle.

What do you think about doing a Keto diet during off season? Considering i wont be doing tons of cardio and i'm lifting heavy, would that work?

First, didn't you just say 30 minutes per day? That's still 3 1/2 hours of cardio in the offseason - that's hardly not a lot.

Keto during the offseason doesn't make much sense to me - carbs are not your enemy. At least apply some nutrient timing rules and throw your carb intake around periods of heightened insulin sensitivity - AM, around workouts, etc.

Mind you, it depends on your offseason goals.

It just seems when i eat a juicy steak, i dont go looking for something in an hour. To tell you the truth., im not really a big fan of carbs. All i ate during my prep was oatmeal and fruit. I was always craving a steak(with alot of fat on it) or chicken(but mostly the skin) and chiccharone(fried pork skin). Oh, and i could literally drink olive oil!! he he he.

There's nothing wrong with steak while dieting. Not one bit.

Erik

10-29-2008, 02:46 PM

I LOVE steak and cannot and will not live without it. Though I do limit it 2-4 weeks out. Then on contest day I usually eat a 4oz steak 2x in the day. Yum!

Why do you feel you need to limit it a month out?

Patricia Dees

10-29-2008, 02:52 PM

I've lost 2 inches off both navel and waist over the last 4 weeks working with Erik.... and all doing less than 90 min total cardio a week. And not starving.

Erik

10-29-2008, 02:56 PM

Does this whole thing basically just breakdown to calories in versus calories out?

Calories are at the very foundation of the pyramid so to speak.

Nothing happens in the way of fat loss, without a caloric deficit - which can of course be created by diet, exercise, or in our case, some combination of both.

It's not the ONLY important thing, but it is the foundation.

How do you figure out your starting point for calories? and the breakdown prot/carb/fat? Ive read for fat loss 10xbodyweight for total calories, then i read 12 x lean bodyweight for calories for fat loss.

On average, assuming a relatively healthy metabolism, maintenance calories is in the 15 x TBW ball park. A 20% deficit puts you at 12 x TBW. That's a reasonable place to start. You might have to go lower - everyone is potentially different.

The whole point is to simply use outcome-based decision making. Am I losing fat and maintaining size and strength at 12x? Then stay the course. Am I dropping too fast? Up calories or reduce cardio. Am I not dropping at all? Reduce a bit. (look to optimizing your diet before you default to the need for more cardio).

Erik

10-29-2008, 02:57 PM

Believe me, once you start, the insanity will never stop. Just be careful that you don't let the calorie counting, eating healthy, working out, etc, take over your life. We can get way too obsessive over this whole thing and end up making it unhealthy.

Wise words. :awesome:

SBT

10-29-2008, 03:31 PM

Great info Erik!!

Just saying thanks again for taking the time out of your busy days to reply to everyones question on here, and in this thread!! :)

KP DIVA

10-29-2008, 03:39 PM

I've lost 2 inches off both navel and waist over the last 4 weeks working with Erik.... and all doing less than 90 min total cardio a week. And not starving.

Congrats to you on dropping the inches!! But, I have got to sayI am very anxious/scared/excited to get started w/ Erik in the spring!! I know I will be his most difficult client yet:waving:...not b/c I'm hard headed and want to do things my way...BUT b/c my body just doesn't seem to work/respond as easily w/ just a drop in caloric intake.

Open minded is what I have to be......being closed minded doesn't get you anywhere in life.

AmyKempfer

10-29-2008, 03:47 PM

Congrats to you on dropping the inches!! But, I have got to sayI am very anxious/scared/excited to get started w/ Erik in the spring!! I know I will be his most difficult client yet:waving:...not b/c I'm hard headed and want to do things my way...BUT b/c my body just doesn't seem to work/respond as easily w/ just a drop in caloric intake.

Open minded is what I have to be......being closed minded doesn't get you anywhere in life.

OMG! Your going to work with Erik! AWESOME!!! GOOD FOR YOU! If I didn't have Roger, Erik would SO be who I'd hire! Yea Kenyatta!

Erik

10-29-2008, 04:30 PM

I've lost 2 inches off both navel and waist over the last 4 weeks working with Erik.... and all doing less than 90 min total cardio a week. And not starving.

:10:

Erik

10-29-2008, 04:30 PM

Great info Erik!!

Just saying thanks again for taking the time out of your busy days to reply to everyones question on here, and in this thread!! :)

Thanks. :)

It's been fun.

dvsness

10-29-2008, 04:34 PM

My PERSONAL opinion is that clenbuterol is overrated (not saying it doesn't work obviously) and that over time EC is better. Of course, not everyone will agree with that.

Effects are short lived. But you can start using compounds like ketotifin (or in the absence of that, an OTC anti-histamine product maybe) that prevent/slow down receptor attenuation/promote receptor upregulation. (there are quite a number of studies supporting this effect of ketotifen - does make you sleep though which likely warrants bed time usage).

Standard dosing has been 2 weeks on/2 weeks off, but with ketotifen you can theoretically take it longer/more consistently without the drop off.

The 2 days on/2 days off you see sometimes is flawed - since clen has a rather long half life.

Not necessary.

Interesting. Have you tried this yourself? This is the input I've received.

Benadryl and keto (regardless if it were injected or not) did not improve clens use. It was a theory from about 7 years ago that never really panned out. Because Clen is so specific the body will down regulate the receptors rapidly, you get the max effect for 28 days and then you start losing effectiveness unless you increase dose which will just make the problem worse.

The best thing to use in between is nothing that would effect those receptors. Go stim free for a few weeks and then you could start again.

SNIP

The use of ketofin is not a new idea, this was a popular theory in late 99 early 00 and it never worked the way it was supposed to. I have injected quite a bit of it along with taking tons of it orally and it does not improve the use of clen.

You need to use the max dose that "you" the user can handle for a very short period of time. Then you get off it to take a break and allow the receptors the chance to upregulate so you can continue to get the max effect out of your stims.

Its not a clean drug, you shake like hell, heart races and there is a real shitty crash of energy. Most people use it because they think it will help improve fatloss by some great amount and the sad truth is it wont. During a 28 day cycle IIRC you get about a 2% increase in metabolism over ECA (which is between 2-5%). As you can see its a small difference that usually only helps the precontest bodybuilder.

I know people are looking for a better replacement or more effective stimulating fatburner over ECA but at the moment there isnt one...and I stress "at the moment".

Meechel

10-29-2008, 04:44 PM

Congrats to you on dropping the inches!! But, I have got to sayI am very anxious/scared/excited to get started w/ Erik in the spring!! I know I will be his most difficult client yet:waving:...not b/c I'm hard headed and want to do things my way...BUT b/c my body just doesn't seem to work/respond as easily w/ just a drop in caloric intake.

Open minded is what I have to be......being closed minded doesn't get you anywhere in life.

:awesome: Good deal ......have faith! I have watched him for over a year now make some amazing transformations with people who follow his plans.(obviously he has been doing it longer I just happen to "meet" him last September)

Can't wait to meet ya in ATL and Erik too :D

Erik

10-29-2008, 05:03 PM

Interesting. Have you tried this yourself? This is the input I've received.

I've used clen - don't like it. Don't think it's worth it. Think it's overrated.

So, I've never bothered to try to extend it with ketotifen. I was careful to use the word 'theoretically' there though. :)

Seems to make sense on paper; whether or not it bears out in the real world, I am not in a position to say yes or no with absolute certainty. I know a number of people who have CLAIMED it helped - but anecdotes are anecdotes. I say skip the whole thing entirely.

Erik

10-29-2008, 05:19 PM

But, I have got to sayI am very anxious/scared/excited to get started w/ Erik in the spring!! I know I will be his most difficult client yet:waving:...not b/c I'm hard headed and want to do things my way...BUT b/c my body just doesn't seem to work/respond as easily w/ just a drop in caloric intake.

Open minded is what I have to be......being closed minded doesn't get you anywhere in life. [/COLOR]

Just make sure you're doing everything you can to normalize your body in your offseason. Eat enough calories (no deficit), eat enough carbs to maintain thyroid function, don't overdo the offseason cardio, etc.

I think you're going to be fine. But you might need a new hobby with all your extra free time during your prep. :LOLOL:

specialk1067

10-29-2008, 05:34 PM

If you were dissatisfied with your conditioning at your last show, I think it might make more sense to start your prep nice and early to ensure that you have enough time to get to the end goal you're after.

If you've never been to that specific end point yet - all the more reason to start earlier since it's something you've not yet achieved and you just can't predict how it will go when you're trying to get the last fat off.

And there's no reason you can't train heavy while dieting - you should be, if you're goal is maintaining your hard-earned muscle.

First, didn't you just say 30 minutes per day? That's still 3 1/2 hours of cardio in the offseason - that's hardly not a lot.

Keto during the offseason doesn't make much sense to me - carbs are not your enemy. At least apply some nutrient timing rules and throw your carb intake around periods of heightened insulin sensitivity - AM, around workouts, etc.

Mind you, it depends on your offseason goals.

There's nothing wrong with steak while dieting. Not one bit.

Ok., so let me see if i understand this: If i am looking to do a contest in April or May., i should start with my contest prep now as far as diet goes. So i will start with a calorie amount of 12 x tbw. i should be losing 1-2 lbs per week. I will continue to lift heavy (6-10 reps) and work bodyparts 2x per week or every 5 days. As far as cardio goes., i should save that for last resort, or if i stop losing weight at a minimum calorie amount. as the weeks go on, i only drop my calories when i stop losing and adjust it again to 12 x tbw. I'm taking a stab at the nutrient breakdown and will start with 40/30/30.
Im gonna stick with this for at least 8 weeks and see where i am at. To tell you truth., i really actually feel like i'm getting in better shape lifting heavy. i'm trying not to stare at my gut and just focus on getting stronger. even though this is the first week i lift heavy., i still feel really good!! i'm excited!! thank you so much for taking time to help me. i really appreciate it!!!!

Rebecca Lynn Slatt

10-29-2008, 05:35 PM

[QUOTE=jewelofnile69;127777]Believe me, once you start, the insanity will never stop. Just be careful that you don't let the calorie counting, eating healthy, working out, etc, take over your life. We can get way too obsessive over this whole thing and end up making it unhealthy.

BEEN THERE, DONE THAT.....in a better place now. :angel:

Erik

10-29-2008, 05:44 PM

Ok., so let me see if i understand this: If i am looking to do a contest in April or May., i should start with my contest prep now as far as diet goes. So i will start with a calorie amount of 12 x tbw. i should be losing 1-2 lbs per week.

Don't obsess over the scale. Do the right things over time and bodyweight takes care of itself.

And fat loss is not usually linear.

I will continue to lift heavy (6-10 reps) and work bodyparts 2x per week or every 5 days. As far as cardio goes., i should save that for last resort, or if i stop losing weight at a minimum calorie amount. as the weeks go on, i only drop my calories when i stop losing and adjust it again to 12 x tbw.

On the right track.

I'm taking a stab at the nutrient breakdown and will start with 40/30/30.

I think macronutrient percentages are completely irrelevant personally.

Im gonna stick with this for at least 8 weeks and see where i am at. To tell you truth., i really actually feel like i'm getting in better shape lifting heavy. i'm trying not to stare at my gut and just focus on getting stronger. even though this is the first week i lift heavy., i still feel really good!! i'm excited!! thank you so much for taking time to help me. i really appreciate it!!!!

Good stuff. And good luck.

KP DIVA

10-29-2008, 06:27 PM

Just make sure you're doing everything you can to normalize your body in your offseason. Eat enough calories (no deficit), eat enough carbs to maintain thyroid function, don't overdo the offseason cardio, etc.

I think you're going to be fine. But you might need a new hobby with all your extra free time during your prep. :LOLOL:

LOL!!Well the above is exactly what I'm doing....I'm definitely getting the calories in....too much to be honest...still over my offseason max weight!!! I haven't done any cardio in the last 2 weeks BUT I feel like I should be doing something to drop a few pounds!! I need to get off all the ice cream and processed carbs (chex mix) and I'd probably drop some of this weight! It's amazing how funky this offseason has been 4 me ...the discipline and self control I had 3 months ago is completely gone when it comes to the diet!!!!