Help with squats

[Trish]

Hello ladies,
can i get some advice on what to try for back squats. I seem to be having issues with the bar slipping on my back as I go heavier. I was doing 130 plus whatever those bars are...;) 45 lbs
I was doing good but the bar was sliding down. I had some of my friends check me for form and they said i had form right and that I needed to have it a bit higher but then when I did, it was awkward and I could not get one rep in, i felt like it was pushing me forward.
I know this is hard to picture but if you can help I would appreciate any input.

Thanks
Trish

[yettamae]

Hello ladies,
can i get some advice on what to try for back squats. I seem to be having issues with the bar slipping on my back as I go heavier. I was doing 130 plus whatever those bars are...;) 45 lbs
I was doing good but the bar was sliding down. I had some of my friends check me for form and they said i had form right and that I needed to have it a bit higher but then when I did, it was awkward and I could not get one rep in, i felt like it was pushing me forward.
I know this is hard to picture but if you can help I would appreciate any input.

Thanks
Trish

Do you use a sissy pad? Usually a sissy pad helps to keep the bar in place and gives you a soft cushion to rest the bar on your back so it doesn't slide.

[Trish]

:banghead:They have a round pad that goes around the bar at the gym and in the past when I tried it it was worse than the bar alone.

[fitmomma3]

It almost sounds like maybe your shoulders are falling or rounding forward a tad (especially if you feel like you are falling forward)... and this will also cause the bar to slide right down your back ouch! YOU want your shoulders UP PERFECT like a frame to SIT the bar on... it is heavy and the bar may still leave a sore spot on the middle of your back, but if you hold your upper body UPRIGHT enough it should hold your frame and the bar tighter.

When you squat you WANT to think... push my booty back, but keep my upper body COMPLETELY stable and upright (if it sways or drops forward the weights too heavy...picture if I was to video only your upper body IT WOULD NOT MOVE forward or back at all, only up and down), don't let your knees go over your toes (which will also help you push the booty back), and PUSH THROUGH YOUR HEELS to come up, you should almost be able to wiggle your toes you are so focused on your heels (although when the weight gets heavier you have no time to think about that lol) I would start off light and get the form down FIRST and THEN start upping the weight once you are comfortable.

I'll see if I can find some vids of the improper form and then then proper form so you can see the difference.

Oh yeah and I don't like the pads either...it to me puts the bar in wrong placement... if I had clients that INSISTED I'd let them put a towel or shirt over their back to cushion a little... but unless its excruciatingly painful on your back or you have an injury a few sets with the bar on your back never killed anyone lol

[Trish]

It almost sounds like maybe your shoulders are falling or rounding forward a tad (especially if you feel like you are falling forward)... and this will also cause the bar to slide right down your back ouch! YOU want your shoulders UP PERFECT like a frame to SIT the bar on... it is heavy and the bar may still leave a sore spot on the middle of your back, but if you hold your upper body UPRIGHT enough it should hold your frame and the bar tighter.

When you squat you WANT to think... push my booty back, but keep my upper body COMPLETELY stable and upright (if it sways or drops forward the weights too heavy...picture if I was to video only your upper body IT WOULD NOT MOVE forward or back at all, only up and down), don't let your knees go over your toes (which will also help you push the booty back), and PUSH THROUGH YOUR HEELS to come up, you should almost be able to wiggle your toes you are so focused on your heels (although when the weight gets heavier you have no time to think about that lol) I would start off light and get the form down FIRST and THEN start upping the weight once you are comfortable.

I'll see if I can find some vids of the improper form and then then proper form so you can see the difference.

Oh yeah and I don't like the pads either...it to me puts the bar in wrong placement... if I had clients that INSISTED I'd let them put a towel or shirt over their back to cushion a little... but unless its excruciatingly painful on your back or you have an injury a few sets with the bar on your back never killed anyone lol

I will have my boyfriend video me tonight so you can see me and maybe give me better input. I seem to have no problem with 135 lbs, I can do them and I feel fine as it get heavier it feel like i need to use my upper body and it slides. :nuts:
I don't get it.
Please post any videos that you may think are helpful. Id be happy to see them.

[fitmomma3]

I will have my boyfriend video me tonight so you can see me and maybe give me better input. I seem to have no problem with 135 lbs, I can do them and I feel fine as it get heavier it feel like i need to use my upper body and it slides. :nuts:
I don't get it.
Please post any videos that you may think are helpful. Id be happy to see them.
As the weight starts to get heavier this will happen...
Basically lets say my goal is a heavy set in a 6 - 8 rep range
MY first 5 may be perfect and then I start to feel my legs fatigue and my 6th I think in my head did my upper body move lol, my 7th I know it moved cause it was the only way I was going to get back up lol and thats when my hubby will say THAT"S it you're done NO MORE lol (or he will assist with the weight one more rep so I can keep good form) that is a normal progression with heavy weight... this may be what you are doing? And then next week you hope you get Six with perfect form, the 7th is iffy and then the 8th is you last... and the next week 7 with perfect form...and so on and so on...Until you are at top of the rep range with perfect form with that weight, THEN YOU GO UP in weight and start all over lol does that make sense?

[Trish]

As the weight starts to get heavier this will happen...
Basically lets say my goal is a heavy set in a 6 - 8 rep range
MY first 5 may be perfect and then I start to feel my legs fatigue and my 6th I think in my head did my upper body move lol, my 7th I know it moved cause it was the only way I was going to get back up lol and thats when my hubby will say THAT"S it you're done NO MORE lol (or he will assist with the weight one more rep so I can keep good form) that is a normal progression with heavy weight... this may be what you are doing? And then next week you hope you get Six with perfect form, the 7th is iffy and then the 8th is you last... and the next week 7 with perfect form...and so on and so on...Until you are at top of the rep range with perfect form with that weight, THEN YOU GO UP in weight and start all over lol does that make sense?

Yes,you make perfect sense. My workouts change every 6-8 weeks so it just make it harder. I feel like when I finally feel comfortable, its time to do something different.

With this new training I am donig my exercises don't change from week to week but my reps change from week to week. Like 7/5/3 then 6x3 for all sets then 3/2/1
I am having to go back to my log, see my notes and I usually warm up then go with the weight i had last unless my notes say it was too heavy and i go with something lower.
Thanks for the input.

[Hannibal]

I know that as a powerlifter my goal of squatting is different from the competitors on this board. Your bar placement will be slightly different from mine as I carry it across my rear delts and maintain a strong arch. Since you are using the squat as a tool to increase muscular development...I wont comment on bar placement. Though I do agree the sissy pad is a big no no...no matter what you goal is. It increases the distance from the bar to you center of gravity and changes the dynamic of the lift.

Some things I will recommned however....

1) Try to get your elbows under the bar....if you "chicken wing" it with your elbows flared back it will throw you forward.

2) Squeeze the sh*t out of the bar. Just the simple act of gripping the bar tightly activates many extra muscle fibers.

3) BEND THE BAR ACROSS YOUR BACK....pull the bar down across your back. This helps lock it in place and when combine with #2 it pretty much locks your entire upper back.

4) Lead with your head.....when you come out of the hole (the concentric portion of the squat) make sure you drive your head back into the bar first. If you raise your butt first....then it throws your entire upper body forward.

[fitmomma3]

No GREAT POINTS... rear delts and arch is good for muscle development IMO too its that "frame" that I was talking about.

[Shelly]

i think most pts were said.. and if i repeat myself i apologize.

I had a HARD time when i started squats having proper form. and it is SO IMPORTANT so you dont hurt yourself...and so that you are getting the most out of the exercise.

Practice your form first with just the 45lb bar. I do this every time i squat... to get the motion down. Think ASS to ANKLES. Keep your CHEST UP...and LOOK UP if you have to to make sure you arent hunching..you dont want to strain hurt your lower back.

You should rest the bar on your traps... when the weights heavy it takes a few weeks for your body to get used to that much weight on your back.

I suggest NOT getting used to using the tampon (thats what we call the padded cushion you put around the bar :D LOL) You want to be able to do without any aid ideally...

If your problems persist... I can only suggest doing a weight comfortable for you...and PERFECTING YOUR FORM,SLOW NEGATIVES, and kill squats that way.

[DanielleA]

I wrap my towel around the bar, first folding it in half, and then wrapping it around the middle. The bar should be sitting somewhere on your traps. Sounds like you may be keeping it too far down your back.

[Hannibal]

No GREAT POINTS... rear delts and arch is good for muscle development IMO too its that "frame" that I was talking about.

Obviously I agree....but as you can see from just a few posts on this thread...opinions vary on bar placement.

[Betsy]

I agree to all of the above! LoL

As a "good squatter".. as i have very good form.. id say the most important thing when going HEAVY is making sure your base is decently wide.. keep your torso upright, chest out at all times.. and concentrate on keeping your form as you lower to the ground...

Take a video so we can critique!! :awesome:

[Trish]

I will post the video later today, waiting on my bf to email it to me as he took it last night. Thank you...

[Shelly]

I will post the video later today, waiting on my bf to email it to me as he took it last night. Thank you...

:popcorn:

[Trish]

ok,
I hate videos...lol :mad: but as promise here ya go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvkF0VwvgDg

[Erik]

Are you training for development or strength?

ETA - it looks like more of a PL set up - wide stance, low bar placement, elbows back, etc. If you're squatting more for development, I'd bring your stance in, rotate your elbows forward so that they point directly to the ground - that alone will keep you more upright, go a bit deeper, and use a higher bar placement, akin to an Olympic-style squat.

[Shelly]

agree to what erik said.

you are doing the same thing I did when I started. you are leaning forward too much... almost as if you are doing a good morning..but obviously not that exxhaggerated. Dont bend yoru back so much when you go down... look up as Kenyatta said in your journal...and keep yout torse in the same plane as you go up and down....

hope this helps!!!

[Trish]

Are you training for development or strength?

ETA - it looks like more of a PL set up - wide stance, low bar placement, elbows back, etc. If you're squatting more for development, I'd bring your stance in, rotate your elbows forward so that they point directly to the ground - that alone will keep you more upright, go a bit deeper, and use a higher bar placement, akin to an Olympic-style squat.

Hi Erik,
Thank you for stopping in. I am currently carb cycling and from my understanding the goal is to maintain the mass while dieting. I have been getting stronger on a defecit but then again my weight training program is totally different from my previous one, this one is less reps more weight as oppose to my last one that was higher in reps and less weight.

I hope i answered your question correctly.

[Trish]

Are you training for development or strength?

ETA - it looks like more of a PL set up - wide stance, low bar placement, elbows back, etc. If you're squatting more for development, I'd bring your stance in, rotate your elbows forward so that they point directly to the ground - that alone will keep you more upright, go a bit deeper, and use a higher bar placement, akin to an Olympic-style squat.

PL set up? sorry dont understand Power Lift maybe:confused:

I tend to do wide stance because it doesn't bother my knees as when I try to bring my stance in. I also seem feel really unstable, like my feet don't sit falt and i am rocking. Hope that make sense. Any other suggestions.

I really want to work on this as I can really see a difference in my legs since i stop doing sm squats and doing these.

[Erik]

Hi Erik,
Thank you for stopping in. I am currently carb cycling and from my understanding the goal is to maintain the mass while dieting. I have been getting stronger on a defecit but then again my weight training program is totally different from my previous one, this one is less reps more weight as oppose to my last one that was higher in reps and less weight.

I hope i answered your question correctly.

Well, my point was simply that if your goals are physique specific (and since you're dieting, and working with Jen if I remember correctly right?, I'd conclude that they are) , as opposed to just strength specific (ie. powerlifting), then I'd make some changes to how you squat. See my previous post. :)

[Erik]

PL set up? sorry dont understand Power Lift maybe:confused:


You got it.


I tend to do wide stance because it doesn't bother my knees as when I try to bring my stance in. I also seem feel really unstable, like my feet don't sit falt and i am rocking. Hope that make sense. Any other suggestions.

Hmmm ...

If you have chronic (as opposed to sharp or acute) knee pain when doing something, typically (but not always of course), there are issues with hip and/or ankle mobility. Very often issues at these joints, which are built for mobility, manifest themselves at the knees.

If you watch a 2-yr old squat, you'll see textbook, rock bottom form - it's a natural movement for the joints of the lower body. Not being able to do it is a sign that something is amiss somewhere along the chain.

I'd probably recommend you spend some time working on the mobility/flexibility of your hips and ankles, do more glute activation work, and drop the weight and focus on building up the stability you seem to be missing with an Olympic style squat.

Any chance of getting a video of you trying the narrower/deeper stance so we can see if there are any glaring issues in your technique that might be contributing to the problem?

Here's an example of a high bar, Oly style squat (with me doing it lol)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gkpPUTuiz6Q

[Trish]

You got it.



Hmmm ...

If you have chronic (as opposed to sharp or acute) knee pain when doing something, typically (but not always of course), there are issues with hip and/or ankle mobility. Very often issues at these joints, which are built for mobility, manifest themselves at the knees.

If you watch a 2-yr old squat, you'll see textbook, rock bottom form - it's a natural movement for the joints of the lower body. Not being able to do it is a sign that something is amiss somewhere along the chain.

I'd probably recommend you spend some time working on the mobility/flexibility of your hips and ankles, do more glute activation work, and drop the weight and focus on building up the stability you seem to be missing with an Olympic style squat.

Any chance of getting a video of you trying the narrower/deeper stance so we can see if there are any glaring issues in your technique that might be contributing to the problem?

I can defenitely do a video. I just feel like I am going to fall on my butt. I will get a video done today and post. :) thank you

I will look up a couple of videos online to see how to do these and should i do the same thing elbows pointing down ?

[Erik]

I can defenitely do a video. I just feel like I am going to fall on my butt. I will get a video done today and post. :) thank you

I will look up a couple of videos online to see how to do these and should i do the same thing elbows pointing down ?

Yes, see the video I added at the end of my last post.

[Trish]

agree to what erik said.

you are doing the same thing I did when I started. you are leaning forward too much... almost as if you are doing a good morning..but obviously not that exxhaggerated. Dont bend yoru back so much when you go down... look up as Kenyatta said in your journal...and keep yout torse in the same plane as you go up and down....

hope this helps!!!

Hi Shelly,
:mad: I can't believe I've been doing these wrong all this time. I think i am the only girl (or one of the few) that actually squats and i thought I was at least doing them right.

Thank you

Here is from a different view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGPMbaURmg4

[Erik]

Hi Shelly,
:mad: I can't believe I've been doing these wrong all this time. I think i am the only girl (or one of the few) that actually squats and i thought I was at least doing them right.

Thank you

Here is from a different view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGPMbaURmg4

From that angle you can tell that your knees are buckling a bit as well.

[Trish]

Yes, see the video I added at the end of my last post.

Thanks just saw this. I actually remember this video. I saw it before. Now when I start practicing this, I will do it with the bar but how does one correct the flexibility/mobility issue. Because at time I know with the bar it seems easy but when you start adding weight things change.

[Erik]

Thanks just saw this. I actually remember this video. I saw it before. Now when I start practicing this, I will do it with the bar but how does one correct the flexibility/mobility issue. Because at time I know with the bar it seems easy but when you start adding weight things change.

At the hip, things like

Anterior/Posterior Leg Swings
Side/Side Leg Swings
Fire Hydrants
High Knee Walks
Lateral Step Overs
etc

At the glutes
Statically stretching the hip flexors to shut off the reciprocal inhibition of the glutes.
Bird dogs
Single/Double leg Glute Bridges
Etc.

At the ankle
Dynamic Calf Stretching
Etc

If you look for stuff written by Mike Robertson or Eric Cressey (or just grab their Magnificent Mobility DVD) you'll find a lot of stuff on improving overall mobility and why it's important for some joints, but not others.

[Trish]

At the hip, things like

Anterior/Posterior Leg Swings
Side/Side Leg Swings
Fire Hydrants
High Knee Walks
Lateral Step Overs
etc

At the glutes
Statically stretching the hip flexors to shut off the reciprocal inhibition of the glutes.
Bird dogs
Single/Double leg Glute Bridges
Etc.

At the ankle
Dynamic Calf Stretching
Etc

If you look for stuff written by Mike Robertson or Eric Cressey (or just grab their Magnificent Mobility DVD) you'll find a lot of stuff on improving overall mobility and why it's important for some joints, but not others.

Thank you, i have some homework to do...:o

[Trish]

what do you think about the people that put weight plates on the heels? I see people doing that.

[Erik]

what do you think about the people that put weight plates on the heels? I see people doing that.

Well, the goal should still be to squat properly with your feet flat on the ground. However, while you're working on improving your flexibility/mobility, plates under the heels can be a good, albeit temporary, tool. They'll make up for a lack of ankle mobility and will allow you to stay more upright with increasing depth.

But work to wean your way off them over time.

[Shelly]

Hi Shelly,
:mad: I can't believe I've been doing these wrong all this time. I think i am the only girl (or one of the few) that actually squats and i thought I was at least doing them right.

Thank you

Here is from a different view. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGPMbaURmg4

not many girls squat in our gym either girl!! and DONT be so hard on yourself!! :kiss:
Like I said... getting form down is crucial i used to do the SAME EXACT THING AS YOU- my form still isnt PERFECT but improved.

I agree your knees are buckling a lil bit... maybe bring your stance in a bit... and really focus on NOT MOVING YOUR BACK... just think DOWN and UP, keeping your back as straight as possible

Wearing a belt has also helped me on heavier squats....

PROPS for squatting at all!! youll get it!!

[Trish]

Well, the goal should still be to squat properly with your feet flat on the ground. However, while you're working on improving your flexibility/mobility, plates under the heels can be a good, albeit temporary, tool. They'll make up for a lack of ankle mobility and will allow you to stay more upright with increasing depth.

But work to wean your way off them over time.

ok, well I just was trying some in the lunch room. LOL I know. I was just doing bw squats and my heals were lifting :no:

I'll promise to get the video as soon as I can and in the mean time I will look up some of Mike's articles.

[DanielleA]

Hey Erik - what are your thoughts on wearing a belt while squatting? I don't do it, but have thought about getting one until a trainer in the gym told me I am better off without it. He said something like it will only make my back weaker and I should let my back be involved in the motion. :confused: What do YOU think?

[Shelly]

Hey Erik - what are your thoughts on wearing a belt while squatting? I don't do it, but have thought about getting one until a trainer in the gym told me I am better off without it. He said something like it will only make my back weaker and I should let my back be involved in the motion. :confused: What do YOU think?

how heavy are you squatting? you DONT want your back involved in a squat motion... thats why belts help keep your back stable so you dont strain it.

Me personally- i cannot squat 185 lbs WITHOUT a belt.. NO way id hurt myself!!

Granted you dont want to become reliant on always using a belt no matter what the weight...and use it as a crutch...with that I agree.

[Betsy]

::butting in::

I personally use the belt NO MATTER WHATTTTTTTT but if you are doing smith machine vs free standing then there is a difference.. but if you are doing free standing.. id say USE THE BELT-- it definitely helps in keeping form proper, and stabalizing your back so that you are fully utilizing your legs in the motion! just my :gen123:

[DanielleA]

Well...I don't use one because in my mind I feel that if the weight is too heavy and I can't get the form down right, then I shouldn't be squatting that much weight. I'd rather gradually add weight and let my body adjust while using proper form, without a belt. Just personal preference!

[Shelly]

Well...I don't use one because in my mind I feel that if the weight is too heavy and I can't get the form down right, then I shouldn't be squatting that much weight. I'd rather gradually add weight and let my body adjust while using proper form, without a belt. Just personal preference!

i agree- but the point you want to get to is so that no matter what weight you have on there your form doesnt change.

Whether i do 45 lbs or 165 lbs. my form stays the same.. the reps are what change.
again- just my thoughts- squat are what GROW your legs so HEAVY is the way to go IMO.

[DanielleA]

I am not adverse to trying one if it is advantageous, that's why I wanted to know what Erik's thoughts were.

[fitmomma3]

Hi Erik,
Thank you for stopping in. I am currently carb cycling and from my understanding the goal is to maintain the mass while dieting. I have been getting stronger on a defecit but then again my weight training program is totally different from my previous one, this one is less reps more weight as oppose to my last one that was higher in reps and less weight.

I hope i answered your question correctly.You def want to MAINTAIN mass while dieting by continuing to challenge your muscle with heavy weight, but as you are in a calorie deficit AND lowering your body fat you shouldn't be worried about breaking any PRs lol GREAT if you do... but IMO thats what offseason is for when you have a surplus of calories and a little fluff to lube the joints LOL

Eric has given you great advice... I really think taking your stance in to shoulder width or even slightly out from shoulder will change your form DRAMATICALLY... automatically you won't be able to sit the bar that low and you will really have to push that butt back to keep your chest from dropping.

My range of motion opinion is slightly different... If my goal is heavy with proper form to hit quad dev/growth I squat below 90 degress (no shallow squats) but NOT ass to ankles deep... if my goals is to hit more glutes and hams then I lower the weight and will go with the deeper squat, and often I will do THAT type of squat on the smith as it it safer and more stable... but even then ass to ankle to me never feels great on my joints and/or hip flexors so I don't do it often but thats just me. I also come from a very long limbed family lol and although I'm not tall I'm all legs so even though I'm flexible that infant position (that my kids literally will play a game sitting in LOL) NEVER FEELS comfortable to me even without weight... but my husband has a longer torso and shorter legs and ass to ankles is very comfortable for him and HE has NO FLEXIBILITY whatsoever lol so it does depend on your body too IMO

As far as the belt discussion... I am not a fan of overusing belts or wraps because they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" muscles if you always rely on them IMO. Yes you want your back stable and your form impeccable on all sets but your core muscles should safely be able to support that form on lighter sets, as you go heavier the belt is there to protect your back... so for HEAVY SETS yes you MUST IMO use a belt for safety, but warming up or rep work unless you have an injury I wouldn't... again thats just me.

[Erik]

Hey Erik - what are your thoughts on wearing a belt while squatting? I don't do it, but have thought about getting one until a trainer in the gym told me I am better off without it. He said something like it will only make my back weaker and I should let my back be involved in the motion. :confused: What do YOU think?

Hey Danielle,

I don't really think a belt is necessary until you're lifting above 90% of your 1RM. Ensuring good technique throughout the lift should ensure that you're going to be just fine without one.

Some points from world renowned back expert Dr. Stuart McGill:

A review of the documented effects of belt wearing in occupational settings (McGill, 1993) would support that:

• Those who have never had a previous back injury appear to have no additional protective benefit from wearing a belt.

• Those who are injured while wearing a belt seem to risk a more severe injury.

• Belts appear to give people the perception they can lift more and may in fact enable them to lift more.

• Belts appear to increase intra-abdominal pressure and blood pressure.

• Belts appear to change the lifting styles of some people to either decrease the loads on the spine or increase the loads on the spine.


Other opinions have been expressed regarding the mechanisms of belts,
although few hold up to scrutiny. For example, some have suggested that belts perform the following functions:

• Remind people to lift properly

• Support shear loading on the spine that results from the effect of gravity acting on the handheld load and mass of the upper body when the trunk is flexed

• Reduce compressive loading of the lumbar spine through the hydraulic action of increased intra-abdominal pressure associated with belt wearing

• Act as a splint on the torso, reducing the range of motion and thereby decreasing the risk of injury

• Provide warmth to the lumbar region

• Enhance proprioception via pressure to increase the perception of stability

• Reduce muscular fatigue

• Provide stiffening to the torso to enhance performance

Many of these remain contentious.

[Erik]

And one more thing from McGill:

Belt use for Serious Lifting Athletes

Much of the occupational evidence has relevance for athletic use of belts. There is no question that belts assist in generating a few more ewton-meters (or foot-pounds) of torque in the torso through elastic recoil of a bent torso that is stiffened with a belt.

However, if a neutral spine is preserved throughout the lift this effect is diminished. In other words, to obtain the maximal effect from a belt, the lifter must lift poorly and in a way that exposed the back to a much higher risk of injury! There is no question that belts assist in generating torso stiffness to reduce the risk of spine buckling in extreme heavy lifts. Many athletes working at this edge of the envelope will receive this assist. However, other techniques are employed to maximize the torso stiffness – the lungs are filled to almost the top of tidal volume and the breath is then held. In some tasks, an athlete will only “sip” the air never allowing much air to leave the lungs that would reduce torso stiffness.

Belts also increase intra-abdominal pressure which in turn increases the CNS
fluid pressure in the spine and, in turn, the brain. This decreases the transmural gradient (the pressure difference between the arterial blood pressure in the brain vessels and the brain itself) which in turn may reduce the risk of aneurysm, or stroke. Others have argued that this effect has detrimental implications for venous return to the heart. There appears to be no evidence to suggest where the balance lies on this issue. There are other
counter considerations. Evidence suggests that people change their motor patterns, together with their motion patterns when using a belt. The evidence suggests that these motor control changes can elevate the risk of injury should a belt not be worn in a belttraining athlete. The severity of a back injury may be greater if a belt is worn. Many people adopt belts in training for one of three reasons:

• They have observed others wearing them and have assumed that it will be a good idea for them to do so.

• Their backs are becoming sore and they believe that a back belt will help.

• They want to lift a few more pounds.

None of these reasons are consistent with the objective of good health. It would appear that if one must lift a few more pounds, wear a belt. If one wants to groove motor patterns to train for other athletic tasks that demand a stable torso, it is probably better not to wear one. Instead individuals are encouraged to train the core musculature and to perfect lifting technique.

[DanielleA]

As far as the belt discussion... I am not a fan of overusing belts or wraps because they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" muscles if you always rely on them IMO. Yes you want your back stable and your form impeccable on all sets but your core muscles should safely be able to support that form on lighter sets, as you go heavier the belt is there to protect your back... so for HEAVY SETS yes you MUST IMO use a belt for safety, but warming up or rep work unless you have an injury I wouldn't... again thats just me.

That's kinda what that guy was saying to me in the gym (going back to my original post). I couldn't remember how he phrased it. Thanks Steph!

[DanielleA]

Thanks for all the info! Could you briefly explain what 1RM refers to?

[Erik]

Thanks for all the info! Could you briefly explain what 1RM refers to?

One-rep max.

So 90% of 1RM generally refers to what you can do for 3 reps tops. So my opinion is that you might consider using a belt for anything in the 3 reps and under rep range.

[Nickyfregs]

While I agree that belts are not needed on most squat sets, if you are in the 4-6 rep range and working with heavy weight I feel they are justified.

While I know what Steph is saying with "they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" I personally do heavy squats for QUAD and overall leg growth not core strength and abdominal muscle stabilization. Using a belt for 1 or 2 heavy sets will not cause a retraction or breakdown in your core strength IMO.

[DanielleA]

One-rep max.

So 90% of 1RM generally refers to what you can do for 3 reps tops. So my opinion is that you might consider using a belt for anything in the 3 reps and under rep range.

While I agree that belts are not needed on most squat sets, if you are in the 4-6 rep range and working with heavy weight I feel they are justified.

While I know what Steph is saying with "they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" I personally do heavy squats for QUAD and overall leg growth not core strength and abdominal muscle stabilization. Using a belt for 1 or 2 heavy sets will not cause a retraction or breakdown in your core strength IMO.


Good info!! Thanks guys. Always helpful to learn what is proper protocall.

[fitmomma3]

While I agree that belts are not needed on most squat sets, if you are in the 4-6 rep range and working with heavy weight I feel they are justified.

While I know what Steph is saying with "they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" I personally do heavy squats for QUAD and overall leg growth not core strength and abdominal muscle stabilization. Using a belt for 1 or 2 heavy sets will not cause a retraction or breakdown in your core strength IMO.I said to use it for HEAVY SETS... so we agree... but I don't see the need to use it on light sets and rep work.

[fitmomma3]

That's kinda what that guy was saying to me in the gym (going back to my original post). I couldn't remember how he phrased it. Thanks Steph!See my father in-law and hubbys uncle were both PLs and they would call us pansies if they saw anyone squatting with under two plates wearing a belt and don't even get them started on lifting gloves LOL ... I just started using a belt and wraps this year...THE WRAPS I use to use but they never worked right on my little hands it was sooooo frustrating LOL I got versa grips and they ARE the BEST Investment I have EVER made I swear they have helped my deadlifts and back development RIDICULOUSLY but I still do not use them throughout my whole back workout... I WANT to hit forearms as well...

I also think the belt thing came from a lot of people believing squats and deads make you blocky from hitting your core which I'm not gonna lie HAS scared me shitless...cause I know so many people that swear IT HAS, but I think its more genetic than anything else and unless you are powerlifting 24/7 ONLY I don't think you have to worry.

[Trish]

You def want to MAINTAIN mass while dieting by continuing to challenge your muscle with heavy weight, but as you are in a calorie deficit AND lowering your body fat you shouldn't be worried about breaking any PRs lol GREAT if you do... but IMO thats what offseason is for when you have a surplus of calories and a little fluff to lube the joints LOL

Eric has given you great advice... I really think taking your stance in to shoulder width or even slightly out from shoulder will change your form DRAMATICALLY... automatically you won't be able to sit the bar that low and you will really have to push that butt back to keep your chest from dropping.

My range of motion opinion is slightly different... If my goal is heavy with proper form to hit quad dev/growth I squat below 90 degress (no shallow squats) but NOT ass to ankles deep... if my goals is to hit more glutes and hams then I lower the weight and will go with the deeper squat, and often I will do THAT type of squat on the smith as it it safer and more stable... but even then ass to ankle to me never feels great on my joints and/or hip flexors so I don't do it often but thats just me. I also come from a very long limbed family lol and although I'm not tall I'm all legs so even though I'm flexible that infant position (that my kids literally will play a game sitting in LOL) NEVER FEELS comfortable to me even without weight... but my husband has a longer torso and shorter legs and ass to ankles is very comfortable for him and HE has NO FLEXIBILITY whatsoever lol so it does depend on your body too IMO

As far as the belt discussion... I am not a fan of overusing belts or wraps because they can prevent you from building core strength and "assisting/indirect" muscles if you always rely on them IMO. Yes you want your back stable and your form impeccable on all sets but your core muscles should safely be able to support that form on lighter sets, as you go heavier the belt is there to protect your back... so for HEAVY SETS yes you MUST IMO use a belt for safety, but warming up or rep work unless you have an injury I wouldn't... again thats just me.

Hello,
I am really not trying to break and PR. I honestly can care less about that. I just want to do things with proper form. My required rep range for this week was 3 so I was trying to go as heavy as I could without losing form and also challenging myself.

I have had issues with squats and you know that feeling like...did I do that right. Look up videos, read etc but you are right everyone is different. I see people that bend worse than I and streach there hands even more. I've had trainers say I have good form but I still dont feel right. (but the trainers at my gym don't really impress me anyway)

Thank you for all this great information, I will do my best to work on these and post another video. :yippie:

[dieselfemme]

So what do you all think of using the "Manta Ray" plastic piece when squatting instead of going bare back or using the sissy pad / tampon (LOL!)? We have a few of these at my gym and I find using one very helpful when I'm squatting heavy.

Here's a link to the Manta Ray if you're unsure what I'm talking about...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/adfit/manta.html

[KP DIVA]

So what do you all think of using the "Manta Ray" plastic piece when squatting instead of going bare back or using the sissy pad / tampon (LOL!)? We have a few of these at my gym and I find using one very helpful when I'm squatting heavy.

Here's a link to the Manta Ray if you're unsure what I'm talking about...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/adfit/manta.html

Hey T..I've never seen that device in my life!! I guess it would get the job done. I tend to use a towel....the 'tampon' is to thick and becomes a distraction.

[Trish]

So what do you all think of using the "Manta Ray" plastic piece when squatting instead of going bare back or using the sissy pad / tampon (LOL!)? We have a few of these at my gym and I find using one very helpful when I'm squatting heavy.

Here's a link to the Manta Ray if you're unsure what I'm talking about...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/adfit/manta.html

it is funny you mentioned this. I actually had someone mentioned this to me over the weekend but I had no idea what it was. :)

[Hannibal]

The problem with the Manta Ray is the same as the problem with the "tampon"....increases the distance between the bar and the COG.

And for the record Trish....I don't think that your form in the first vid was bad at all. If your goal was to lift as much weight as possible in the squat...then your form was pretty dead on.

Don't me so hard on yourself....as Erik said it just needs to be modified to accomplish your goals.

[Trish]

The problem with the Manta Ray is the same as the problem with the "tampon"....increases the distance between the bar and the COG.

And for the record Trish....I don't think that your form in the first vid was bad at all. If your goal was to lift as much weight as possible in the squat...then your form was pretty dead on.

Don't me so hard on yourself....as Erik said it just needs to be modified to accomplish your goals.

Thank you. Yes, that was the goal to get as much weight for 3 reps. Are box squats a good way to work on squats?

[Shelly]

LMAo now everyones gonna walk around calling that thing a tampon :rolf:

[Meechel]

Glad to see you got some good advice on these :D

[Hannibal]

Thank you. Yes, that was the goal to get as much weight for 3 reps. Are box squats a good way to work on squats?

I personally think so...but then I think like a powerlifter admittedly. Given your goals as long as you don't go too heavy I think they would be a great tool to learn proper form.

[Erik]

I think box squats are a great tool to learn how to better squat powerlifter style - ie, low bar, hips back, etc.

But I don't think it's a good tool at all to develop a good high bar, Oly-style squat. Completely different movement and mechanics.

Front squatting with an Oly grip will groove your back squat quite well though from my experience.

[superoboe73]

I liked Milos Sarcev's descriptions of both back and front squats in this video, http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/fitshow5.htm

I had probs too w/ heels coming up during squats at first- two things my trainer had me do that really helped me were bodyweight squats at very high reps (HAD to figure out good form or else I'd kill myself), and then front squats (10-15 reps) were also helpful.
Also, he had me do squats w/ an incline box for a little while, when I needed a little help w/ my way too-tight calves. Idk if this is advisable for everyone though- I had a LOT of foot/ankle injuries prior to starting weight training, and my calves overcompensated and started causing problems themselves a couple of years ago- the box was ok at the time, but I had a little trouble getting back into a regular form. It served it's purpose though, and now I'm starting to be able to add more weight.

[Trish]

I liked Milos Sarcev's descriptions of both back and front squats in this video, http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/fitshow5.htm

I had probs too w/ heels coming up during squats at first- two things my trainer had me do that really helped me were bodyweight squats at very high reps (HAD to figure out good form or else I'd kill myself), and then front squats (10-15 reps) were also helpful.
Also, he had me do squats w/ an incline box for a little while, when I needed a little help w/ my way too-tight calves. Idk if this is advisable for everyone though- I had a LOT of foot/ankle injuries prior to starting weight training, and my calves overcompensated and started causing problems themselves a couple of years ago- the box was ok at the time, but I had a little trouble getting back into a regular form. It served it's purpose though, and now I'm starting to be able to add more weight.

Nice video. I see he used the plates under the heals but didnt say why :confused:

[Qubabe]

It keeps the pressure in the heal at all times so you are less likely to injure your knees and forces good and correct form.

[Trish]

Ok, I was finally able to upload this video that I took the same day I did the others. It felt funny too. :mad:
Are these any better. I still felt a little unstable. It like my feet are not flat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3hciL00EYU

[Erik]

Ok, I was finally able to upload this video that I took the same day I did the others. It felt funny too. :mad:
Are these any better. I still felt a little unstable. It like my feet are not flat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3hciL00EYU

Hi, they look ok; focus on keeping the elbows up. Front squats tend to be more suited to low reps because of the fatigue that can come on the upper back muscles.

That said, I really think you should learn the Olympic grip. It's just a better all around movement - more stable, etc. When the loads start to get heavy you're not 'balancing' the weight as it just sits in the nice groove you create.

Here's a shot of my wife doing it with the Oly. grip as an example.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1DviM61oH1M

[Trish]

Hi, they look ok; focus on keeping the elbows up. Front squats tend to be more suited to low reps because of the fatigue that can come on the upper back muscles.

That said, I really think you should learn the Olympic grip. It's just a better all around movement - more stable, etc. When the loads start to get heavy you're not 'balancing' the weight as it just sits in the nice groove you create.

Here's a shot of my wife doing it with the Oly. grip as an example.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1DviM61oH1M

Gotcha, I was not sure what you meant by Oly Grip. Thank you for the example. I see what you mean about being really straigt.

I will post some trying with focus on all the tips. :yourock:

[Meechel]

Good job on fronts. You got a lot lower (ass to grass style) on fronts then your previous back squats. :awesome:

[Trish]

Good job on fronts. You got a lot lower (ass to grass style) on fronts then your previous back squats. :awesome:

Hi Meechel. Thanks I am going to try to do these for a bit. ;)

[Trish]

Hello,
Sorry it took me so long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZWa4U3cYbw

[Erik]

Technique looks good. Don't ignore the eccentric.

[Trish]

Technique looks good. Don't ignore the eccentric.

I had a guy at the gym that used to be a strenght coach help me with this video to post for you. He had me push my chest out and told me to put my arms on the bar closer because I am pretty flexible. As you can see in the video in an istant there I kind of rocked foward and that is what seems to happen to me when I put on more weight.

so do you mean I need to come up slower on my squat?

[Erik]

I had a guy at the gym that used to be a strenght coach help me with this video to post for you. He had me push my chest out and told me to put my arms on the bar closer because I am pretty flexible. As you can see in the video in an istant there I kind of rocked foward and that is what seems to happen to me when I put on more weight.

so do you mean I need to come up slower on my squat?

No, the concentric (the 'hard' part) should always be powerful and quick (at least the attempt to move it quick should be there; heavy weights don't necessarily move quick though LOL).

The eccentric is the lowering/yielding portion of the rep; that can be slowed down a bit.

[Trish]

No, the concentric (the 'hard' part) should always be powerful and quick (at least the attempt to move it quick should be there; heavy weights don't necessarily move quick though LOL).

The eccentric is the lowering/yielding portion of the rep; that can be slowed down a bit.

thanks, but the whole eccentric/concentric thing always gets me confused, no matter how many times Jen explains it. :nuts:

[Meechel]

thanks, but the whole eccentric/concentric thing always gets me confused, no matter how many times Jen explains it. :nuts:

same here and I was joking about writing an article for us folks who don't use technical terms!

I think what Erik is saying is the push back up should be faster or more explosive. Going down is where the 301 comes in so go down a little slower is the eccentric one.

[Trish]

same here and I was joking about writing an article for us folks who don't use technical terms!

I think what Erik is saying is the push back up should be faster or more explosive. Going down is where the 301 comes in so go down a little slower is the eccentric one.

Yes, that article is a good way..just make sure you can kind of relate something else to it, cause gosh...:banghead: sometimes I feel stupid. I read, hear all of this all the time yet I can't remeber which one is which one..lol

Thanks Meechel