What is a good PWO carb to restore muslce glycogen?

[FitFighter]

Hi all- I usually have a banana and a protein shake PWO, but just read that fructose restores liver glycogen and NOT muscle glycogen. So what should I eat PWO to restore muscle glycogen? I do not eat any simple sugars, just usually oats, yams, ezikiel bread (and bananas PWO only). What to eat???

[Blondell]

I like rice cakes and bagels

[Badgergrl]

throw some waxy maize in your shake

[SBT]

I use waxy maize or rice cakes

[Rainy]

I use rice cakes too.

[Shawn]

Bananas, oatmeal, sweet potatoes are my options BUT I would love Pop Tarts.

[Suzanne]

i would go poptarts too (i wish!)

waxy maize by itself then 30 min later protein shake

[bree marsh]

off-season, i usually do a white bagel and either fruit or juice.

[FitFighter]

So fruit is OK??? I would LOVE a bagel- what do you put on it? Thanks for the replies. Do you eat the rice cakes plain? or with some PB on it??

[Blondell]

I keep fats to a minimum--they slow the absorption of the carbs and I want those carbs in my muscles asap. lol. Fruit replenishes liver glycogen b/f it starts to fill muscle glycogen. That is why I don't use it pwo.

[Hannibal]

throw some waxy maize in your shake

I use waxy maize or rice cakes

I agree on the Waxy Maize....I feel a lot better on it than other PWO carbs.

[Meechel]

my top choices are raisin bread, cereal, 100 calorie pack choc covered pretzels x2, mini cheddar rice cakes, and healthy choice fudge bars or skinny cow sandwiches.

I get all my "cravings" worked out thru my PWO meals and never have urge to go off plan.

[IslandGirl]

Waxy Maize immediately post workout. I shake mines at the gym and drink it as I'm walking out the door.

Off-season, I will have a poptart right when I get home. Or a bagel with cream cheese. You want the sugar.

Then 30-45 mins. later, I'll have a protein shake.

[Shelly]

i agree on the waxy maize. i have it PWO in my shake.. and its great

[Hannibal]

i agree on the waxy maize. i have it PWO in my shake.. and its great

After you get used to the consistency that is....I think the first couple times I used it in shakes I made awesome messes since it clumps up. :(

[Blondell]

I plan to try waxy maize, at some point, but when dieting, I'd rather have solid food as much as possible. lol

[IslandGirl]

After you get used to the consistency that is....I think the first couple times I used it in shakes I made awesome messes since it clumps up. :(

I get my waxy from TrueProtein. No clumps whatsoever. Mixes perfectly with water.

[Hannibal]

I get my waxy from TrueProtein. No clumps whatsoever. Mixes perfectly with water.

Yeah as soon as I run out of the stuff I got I am switchin to TrueProtein.

[FitFighter]

I just realized I spelled muscle wrong. Anyway- I prefer to eat whole foods too. So something sugary all the way? It also has to be easy and I can eat in the car. My ride home from the gym is 30 mins.

[Badgergrl]

I get my waxy from TrueProtein. No clumps whatsoever. Mixes perfectly with water.

I started getting mine there too. I love it!
I just started using there protein too; it's the only stuff besides jay robb I can find w/o artificial sweeteners- and it's cheaper and easier to find. I love that I can customize it and get exactly what I want.

[IslandGirl]

If anyone is interested in ordering TrueProtein products. You can use this discount code: TPCTB for 5% off your order, each and everytime.

I love TP products. Great customer service as well.

[yettamae]

I use 30-40 grams dextrose in my PWO shake and I have seen some nice gains from it.

[Meechel]

I just realized I spelled muscle wrong. Anyway- I prefer to eat whole foods too. So something sugary all the way? It also has to be easy and I can eat in the car. My ride home from the gym is 30 mins.

all but the ice cream sandwhiches that I listed are very portable.

[dvsness]

Any carb will replenish glycogen. Why not choose sources that have nutritional value? I use (offseason) oats often. If I am having a shake, I use Carb Component which is made for oats, barley and brown rice.

[Shelly]

If anyone is interested in ordering TrueProtein products. You can use this discount code: TPCTB for 5% off your order, each and everytime.

I love TP products. Great customer service as well.

thanks trace!:kiss:

[JenFerFigure]

Any carb will replenish glycogen. Why not choose sources that have nutritional value? I use (offseason) oats often. If I am having a shake, I use Carb Component which is made for oats, barley and brown rice.

Great point Vanessa. Hey are you a member of Mensa? ;)

[dvsness]

Great point Vanessa. Hey are you a member of Mensa? ;)

:dvsness:

To me, unless you are an ectomorph or have a lagging appetite and need the benefit of fast clearing calories so you can eat more frequently, faster is not necessarily better, even in the post workout window. Unless you are training in a fasted state or running a marathon, glycogen stores should not be depleted. And I know you ladies are getting in an appropriate pre-workout meal, right? PWO nutrition is important, but don't neglect PRE!

[JenFerFigure]

:dvsness:

To me, unless you are an ectomorph or have a lagging appetite and need the benefit of fast clearing calories so you can eat more frequently, faster is not necessarily better, even in the post workout window. Unless you are training in a fasted state or running a marathon, glycogen stores should not be depleted. And I know you ladies are getting in an appropriate pre-workout meal, right? PWO nutrition is important, but don't neglect PRE!

I really like to read your advice. I always learn something from you, or at least you re-enforce info that's in my head. Thanks girl. :awesome::bowdown:

[lil mama]

Waxy Maize immediately post workout. I shake mines at the gym and drink it as I'm walking out the door.

Off-season, I will have a poptart right when I get home. Or a bagel with cream cheese. You want the sugar.

Then 30-45 mins. later, I'll have a protein shake.

Ditto.....IG hope u are doing great,Miss u have not talked with u in awhile so I know u is getting down and dirty at the gym GO GIRL, wish u da best in your comp. but waxy maize is great just learned about the stuff this past November and iz great...like dem Poptarts offseason (Lol)

[Erik]

My thoughts on the 'magic' of post-workout carbs ... specifically the need for liquid carbs like dextrose, maltodextrin, waxy maize, etc.

I'm not sold.

Even with the theory, from an actual results standpoint at the end of the year, I don't think it makes much of a difference whether you use waxy maize type products, maltodextrin, or any other higher molecular weight products, or even simple solid carbohydrates.

Glycogen replenishment isn't the major concern of the PWO period since your average resistance training workout isn't very glycogen depleting to begin with. The only time anyone really needs to be concerned with speed of glycogen replenishment is if one, you train to glycogen depletion and two, you need to use those depleted muscles again very soon. (ie a few hours later). So perhaps there's some athlete application there with multiple training sessions.

Carb type tends to be secondary to carb amount, or so says much of the research. As a result, I simply tell people a carb number to shoot for and a caloric goal to not exceed and then let them decide for themselves what they want to use. It just doesn't make a difference.

Noel was having Skittles post workout every now and then for a while. No difference.

I see the major utility for liquid carbs to be for those who train in a fasted state. (or the two points previously made). Provided adequate pre-workout nutrition is intact, the need for speedy PWO nutrition isn't quite as necessary.

My 2 cents anyway.

Also there's the interesting paper that showed that whole milk stimulated better PWO protein synthesis than skim milk, even with all the additional fat, so that brings into question the need for speed when the primary goal of the PWO period is halting protein breakdown and stimulating protein synthesis.

Erik

[Deserusan]

As mentioned, preworkout nutrition is key to the debate. If you are eating fibrous carb sources with a low GI rating you will be slowing the digestion process greatly. With this in mind, PWO carbs become less of a need as does the need for fast acting sources which cause hyperinsulemia. If anything, PWO protein from a fast acting source I beleive is a bit more important for various reasons.

From personal experience, I do like waxy maize starch sometimes when bulking up because it goes well with fruity protein powders which I also prefer. I'm not a fan of dextrose personally because I'm insulin sensitive and no matter how much I eat I always experience an hypoinsulemic crash which makes me very tired.

Unless you are doing some serious endurance type training or training in a fasted state, you won't be depleting glycogen to a significant degree. However, in this case intraworkout carbs would actually offer a performance advantage over post workout carbs. I do feel there is some merit to using intraworkout carbs while bulking as well as they essentially nullify any catabolic processes, especially when combined with some EAA's, BCAA's, or hydrolyzed protein.

I guess the best advice is to experiment with various carb sources to see what works best for you. Pay attention to your fatigue levels from carb meals, recovery, etc. We all will have varying responses because we all fall somewhere between ectomorphic and endomorphic. I'd say the need for PWO with a high GI rating is greater for those on the ectomorphic side of the fence and this need diminishes as you approach mesomorphic. I don't believe endomorphs should be using them at all PWO if trying to maintain a good physique on the regular as insulin control is dire for them. Insulin is the ectomorph's best friend and the endomorph's worst enemy.

[ParadiseCup]

Any carb will replenish glycogen. Why not choose sources that have nutritional value? I use (offseason) oats often. If I am having a shake, I use Carb Component which is made for oats, barley and brown rice.it is true that any carb can replenish glycogen, but different carbs replenish at different rates and that is the key.

[dvsness]

it is true that any carb can replenish glycogen, but different carbs replenish at different rates and that is the key.

The key to me is protein synthesis, not necessarily glycogen replenishment.

As for WMS, I defer to Alan Aragon:

'There's simply no scientific proof that it causes better muscular gains than any other carb source. None. If there was a single study showing that, I might lend an ear, but there simply isn't any. Here's what people fail to realize - postworkout high molecular weight CHO has been shown to increase rate of glycogen synthesis 23% faster than glucose under the following conditions:

a) after complete glycogen depletion,
b) in an overnight-fasted state, minus a pre-or mid-workout meal,
c) in the absence of protein or aminos, which can undoubtedly alter the transport behavior of the solution,
d) a 300g dose was used in the study. Let's say it again together, three-hundred grams. Now keep in mind how funny it is to hear about guys thinking 40-80g of WMS within the context of their total daily intake of food is gonna do jack.

WMS has zero micronutrition just like dex, and it's more expensive than oats, which are micronutrient-rich. How bout we do the math here... I'd personally rather eat a potato, or oats, or some other carb source that offers not only macronutrition, but micronutrition as well. Unless you need to restock glycogen as fast as possible due to endurance-training the same bodyparts multiple times within a single day, I don't see the point of spending a dime on WMS.'

[Erik]

it is true that any carb can replenish glycogen, but different carbs replenish at different rates and that is the key.

Not according to the published research. It conclusively says carb quantity trumps carb type for glycogen replenishment.

[Erik]

The key to me is protein synthesis, not necessarily glycogen replenishment.

Agreed.


As for WMS, I defer to Alan Aragon:

'There's simply no scientific proof that it causes better muscular gains than any other carb source. None. If there was a single study showing that, I might lend an ear, but there simply isn't any. Here's what people fail to realize - postworkout high molecular weight CHO has been shown to increase rate of glycogen synthesis 23% faster than glucose under the following conditions:

a) after complete glycogen depletion,
b) in an overnight-fasted state, minus a pre-or mid-workout meal,
c) in the absence of protein or aminos, which can undoubtedly alter the transport behavior of the solution,
d) a 300g dose was used in the study. Let's say it again together, three-hundred grams. Now keep in mind how funny it is to hear about guys thinking 40-80g of WMS within the context of their total daily intake of food is gonna do jack.

WMS has zero micronutrition just like dex, and it's more expensive than oats, which are micronutrient-rich. How bout we do the math here... I'd personally rather eat a potato, or oats, or some other carb source that offers not only macronutrition, but micronutrition as well. Unless you need to restock glycogen as fast as possible due to endurance-training the same bodyparts multiple times within a single day, I don't see the point of spending a dime on WMS.'

Good info.

[ParadiseCup]

The key to me is protein synthesis, not necessarily glycogen replenishment.
without the carbs, how does insulin play a role ?

[ParadiseCup]

Not according to the published research. It conclusively says carb quantity trumps carb type for glycogen replenishment.published research ? does a high GI carb cause the same blood sugar response as a low GI carb ?

[Erik]

published research ? does a high GI carb cause the same blood sugar response as a low GI carb ?

The only time GI is at all relevant is if you're eating the food in isolation. If not, the GI is not relevant.

GI doesn't reflect insulin response, it does reflect speed of entry into the blood stream. The insulin index reflects insulin response. Whey protein is very insulinogenic for example.

Carbs are carbs - in the end it still ends up being the same thing - glucose. I think the GI is basically a hoax - useless. Rice cakes or oatmeal - still glucose in the end.

But yes, published research comparing carb type vs carb quantity for glycogen resynthesis. Carb quantity is the key determinant.

And as someone else also mentioned, the priority of the PWO period is hormonal response - stimulating protein synthesis and halting protein breakdown. Not so much glycogen replenishment since standard resistance training programs (sane volume) aren't very glycogen depleting. Glycogen depletion is a secondary goal.

See Alan Aragon's stuff for more on it.

[ParadiseCup]

The only time GI is at all relevant is if you're eating the food in isolation. If not, the GI is not relevant. i was under the assumption that this thread was about PWO carbs, which is taken by itself in order to illicit in insulin response to shuttle the nutrients into the cells

[dvsness]

See Alan Aragon's stuff for more on it.

"You technically shouldn't be able to "spike" insulin if your did your preworkout nutrition right, rather you should create a handoff elevation in insulin already created by the preW meal. "

[ParadiseCup]

a post from a good friend of ours

I am getting a lot of questions around my eating of a lot of high GI carbs, lately, and probably because I am dieting it is getting on my nerves a little bit. I do understand that people generally want to know why it is that I do what I do and I understand that people want to learn but I can tell sometimes that the "tone" of the question is more like "what the fuck do you think you are doing" rather than, "I want to learn why it is you are doing what you are doing".

Let me first say or remind everyone that I get people into SIC condition and I do it consistently with low level competitors as well as high level competitors and including myself. I use the same principles with damned near every one of my clients when it comes to high GI carbs and their response to metabolism. It is funny because I sometimes have to remind myself that there are actually guys out there that diet in such an archaic way that they don't have high carb days, don't use high GI carbs and basically starve themselves lean or starve themselves small (sometimes not even lean or as lean as they could be) and eat the same shit day in and day out for weeks on end. Well, for weeks on end until they cheat on their diet because they get to the point that they can't handle it anymore and blow the diet. It happens and, quite frankly, if I had to eat potatoes for carbs for 15 weeks and my idea of a "high carb day" was an added 200g of potatoes, I probably wouldn't make it, either. It amazes me that this still goes on.

I understand that a lot of people think that high GI carbs equals fat for some reason. Why they think this I don't really know. It could be a lack of knowledge of fundamental nutrition or a lack of knowledge of the effects of carbs on the thyroid and the significance of insulin in holding muscle mass. I even heard it said once that high GI carbs will make you fat during a diet but that same person advocated for insulin use. lol Yeah, use insulin instead of using the diet to do the same damned thing. Oh brother....

The real issue isn't using the high GI carbs but knowing how to use them as far as timing goes in reference to what is going on with the body. High GI carbs elicit a strong insulin response from the body and insulin is a storage hormone. If the timing is right, high GI carbs are far superior to clean carbs for replenishing glycogen and why someone would use shitty, bland tasting carbs like potatoes to get the job done of replenishing glycogen stores when there are things that actually taste good, I have no idea. Again, it must be preconceived notions or something they read in FLEX when they were little. I don't get it. You aren't going to get a strong insulin response from potatoes like you are going to get from cereal or sugary cereal bars or something similar.

I had someone ask me whether I would do my high carb days in the same fashion if I were getting ready for a show. Why not? The reason for the high carb days is to keep getting lean and to use the insulin response to hold onto muscle mass. Why in the hell would I stop them if I were getting ready for a show? Is cereal a no no while prepping or something? It might sound a little arrogant but.. if I am doing it, don't you think it is the best way to do it?? Yeah, that was arrogant but oh well.

Listen, if you want to continue dieting for weeks on end with potatoes and plain oatmeal, go for it. Your metabolism will hate you and you are much more likely to diet away muscle AND not end up as lean as you could be because you aren't getting the most out of manipulating your metabolism to work for you. Just because something is sugary and tastes good doesn't mean, at all, that it doesn't belong in your diet. That is rediculous. My clients will tell you that they eat everything from pancakes to waffles to sushi to toast and jelly to bagels to cereal, etc. - most of them every single week during their preps. Daniel Stern isn't peeled right now at nationals? Kevin Deiner wasn't peeled when he won teenage nationals? Hans VanderGronden wasn't peeled when he took 3rd at North Americans?? KingKong wasn't peeled when he won the Missouri and took second at the Caveman? Oh, the list goes on and on AND this is all without any diuretics - NONE.

I am known for taking the road less traveled and for disproving things over and over, all the time. If you don't think outside of the box, get used to your box.

[Erik]

i was under the assumption that this thread was about PWO carbs, which is taken by itself in order to illicit in insulin response to shuttle the nutrients into the cells

Sure, but it's not taken by itself. You eat protein with it don't you?

And my point is simply that according to the research speed of the carb is not as relevant as how many carbs you're consuming. The carb type is a distant second.

[dvsness]

The Metabolic Responses to High Carbohydrate Meals with Different Glycemic Indices Consumed During Recovery from Prolonged Strenuous Exercise

Emma Stevenson; Clyde Williams; Helen Biscoe

Abstract
This study investigated the metabolic responses to high glycemic index (HGI) or low glycemic index (LGI) meals consumed during recovery from prolonged exercise. Eight male, trained athletes undertook 2 trials. Following an overnight fast, subjects completed a 90-min run at 70% VO2max. Meals were provided 30 min and 2 h following cessation of exercise. The plasma glucose responses to both meals were greater in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). Following breakfast, there were no differences in the serum insulin concentrations between the trials; however, following lunch, concentrations were higher in the HGI trial compared to the LGI trial (P < 0.05). This suggests that the glycemic index of the carbohydrates consumed during the immediate post-exercise period might not be important as long as sufficient carbohydrate is consumed. The high insulin concentrations following a HGI meal later in the recovery period could facilitate further muscle glycogen resynthesis.

[ParadiseCup]

Sure, but it's not taken by itself. You eat protein with it don't you?NO, my post w/o carb drink has a small amount of bcaa's in it. and the question was a PWO carb to restore muscle glycogen, if you're taking in protein, that is not restoring muscle glycogen.

[Erik]

With regards to the quote ...

I'm not quite seeing the point yet; at least any point in opposition to what I've said.

I'm not against 'high GI' carbs at all. I'm simply saying that it doesn't matter if you're using waxy maize or skittles or rice cakes post workout. Carb number trumps carb type.

My point is that people pay too much attention to the glycemic index. It's meaningless in the big picture.

I can diet on high GI carbs in every single meal and be fine. Why? Because regardless of insulin, once digestion has had its hand at the carbs, it's all the same thing - glucose. And it's the end product that matters most.

Fat storage, breakdown, etc is about much more than just insulin. There are other hormones at play that have strong significance.

[dvsness]

NO, my post w/o carb drink has a small amount of bcaa's in it. and the question was a PWO carb to restore muscle glycogen, if you're taking in protein, that is not restoring muscle glycogen.

True - the only case that this would occur would be gluconeogenisis, but that would mean that you are in a starved state and glucagon is taking over. However, this does lead to an interesting point - are PWO carbs needed? Is glycogen restoration the goal of PWO nutrition? How much do you deplete your glycogen levels during your training, particularly low volume training as many BB do?

[Erik]

NO, my post w/o carb drink has a small amount of bcaa's in it. and the question was a PWO carb to restore muscle glycogen, if you're taking in protein, that is not restoring muscle glycogen.

BCAAs = protein.

I'll reiterate my point - what type of carb doesn't matter. How many grams of carbs does matter. I have no other point beyond that. That is what the published research has shown.

As for protein PWO, I see what you're saying there, but it is very insulinogenic (as are the BCAAs, leucine in particular), so it does have a role in helping this whole process.

Good topic.

[ParadiseCup]

I'm not against 'high GI' carbs at all. I'm simply saying that it doesn't matter if you're using waxy maize or skittles or rice cakes post workout. Carb number trumps carb type.

My point is that people pay too much attention to the glycemic index. It's meaningless in the big picture.

I can diet on high GI carbs in every single meal and be fine. Why? Because regardless of insulin, once digestion has had its hand at the carbs, it's all the same thing - glucose. And it's the end product that matters most. I'll reiterate my point - what type of carb doesn't matter. How many grams of carbs does matter. I have no other point beyond that. That is what the published research has shown. are you saying that you can diet on 45g carbs from ice cream and that is the same as 45g carbs from sweet potato ? you must have a lot of "fat" and happy clients :)

Fat storage, breakdown, etc is about much more than just insulin. There are other hormones at play that have strong significance.insulin is a highly important hormone in the human body

[Erik]

are you saying that you can diet on 45g carbs from ice cream and that is the same as 45g carbs from sweet potato ? you must have a lot of "fat" and happy clients :)

Go check out Noel Clark's journal for fat and happy. LOL

Nice dig. :)

Here - http://www.siouxcountry.com/showpost.php?p=38966&postcount=314

You're not going to get 45g of JUST carbs from ice cream are you? You're going to get a lot of fat. Ice cream is also a LOW GI CARB technically due to the fat content.

What I said, was that a high GI and a low GI carb both end up at the same end point - glucose. I don't believe this is debatable is it?


insulin is a highly important hormone in the human body

:confused:

Where did I say it wasn't? I simply said there are other relevant hormones. Stop moving the goal posts already. LOL

That statement doesn't seem to fit in with the context. GI is not relevant to glycogen resynthesis. That is ALL I am saying. That's what the research says.

[ParadiseCup]

Go check out Noel Clark's journal for fat and happy. LOL

Nice dig. :)

Here - http://www.siouxcountry.com/showpost.php?p=38966&postcount=314i've seen her photos and she is in GREAT shape. congrats to both of you !!

what carbs (if any) has she been having post workout over the last month ?
You're not going to get 45g of JUST carbs from ice cream are you? You're going to get a lot of fat. Ice cream is also a LOW GI CARB technically due to the fat content. let's go with 45g carbs from watermelon and 45g carbs from a yam, are you saying they are the same and you can diet with them at each meal because they both turn into glucose ?

[Erik]

what carbs (if any) has she been having post workout over the last month ?

English muffins with sugar free jelly
Rice cakes (chocolate)
Skittles
Mini cinnamon-raisin bagels
Etc.


let's go with 45g carbs from watermelon and 45g carbs from a yam, are you saying they are the same and you can diet with them at each meal because they both turn into glucose ?

I don't know the fructose content of watermelon, but if it contains a lot of fructose, then no, it wouldn't be the same as sweet potatoes. Fructose has different effects.

How about a more traditional comparison?

White potatoes or rice cakes (traditional high GI carbs) vs sweet potatoes, oatmeal, etc (or other traditional low GI carbs).

I say any of the above can be used successfully.

All else being equal - same calories, same carbs, etc will equal the same result.

Insulin isn't the only thing relevant to fat loss. Things like acylation stimulating protein, liproprotein lipase, etc all need to be considered as well.

[ParadiseCup]

My point is that people pay too much attention to the glycemic index. It's meaningless in the big picture.
"The clinical significance of GI remains the subject of intense debate. However, it is clear that the rate and the amount of carbohydrate absorption after a meal have significant effects on postprandial hormonal and metabolic responses. The habitual consumption of high-GI foods may increase risk factors associated with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Conversely, the consumption of foods that elicit low glycemic responses may help to reduce such risk factors."

[ParadiseCup]

English muffins with sugar free jelly
Rice cakes (chocolate)
Skittles
Mini cinnamon-raisin bagels
Etc.
why sugar free jelly if the carbs are all the same ? why not have half the muffin with sugared jelly ?

[Erik]

"The clinical significance of GI remains the subject of intense debate. However, it is clear that the rate and the amount of carbohydrate absorption after a meal have significant effects on postprandial hormonal and metabolic responses. The habitual consumption of high-GI foods may increase risk factors associated with obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Conversely, the consumption of foods that elicit low glycemic responses may help to reduce such risk factors."

Some points

1. What is the source?

2. The quote doesn't say it is clear that the rate and the amount of carbohydrate absorption after a meal has significant effects on glycogen replenishment. It says hormonal and metabolic responses. Although since it says amount, which is what I've said is what's important ....

3. Let's all remember what the GI actually is and how it's measured. 50g of a food eaten in isolation. No one does that. Who eats carb only meals? You start adding protein, fiber, fat, etc to any carb, high or low GI, and that claimed GI is no longer accurate. It drops.

Again, I'm not saying low or high GI is good or bad. I am saying from a fat loss standpoint, it's not relevant.

Bringing in health markers is shifting the goal posts; different topic entirely.

[Erik]

why sugar free jelly if the carbs are all the same ? why not have half the muffin with sugared jelly ?

Because that's what she wanted to have. She could have had regular jelly if she wanted. I let her choose her own PWO carbs. I just give a carb number to hit and a caloric number to not exceed.

Edit - and since I'm at her house right now, I just asked her this question myself. Her response was 'because I want the whole muffin, not half of it.'

LOL

[ParadiseCup]

I'll reiterate my point - what type of carb doesn't matter. How many grams of carbs does matter. I have no other point beyond that. That is what the published research has shown.
I don't know the fructose content of watermelon, but if it contains a lot of fructose, then no, it wouldn't be the same as sweet potatoes. Fructose has different effects.
so ALL carbs aren't the same ? a 286g wedge of watermelon has 22grams of carbs and no fat, likened to a 114g sweet potato with 24 grams of carbs and no fat. you could diet on either one for all your meals as long as your carb count was correct ?

[ParadiseCup]

Edit - and since I'm at her house right now, I just asked her this question myself. Her response was 'because I want the whole muffin, not half of it.'

LOL:waving: and she definitely has the right to choose !!

[ParadiseCup]

Who eats carb only meals? You start adding protein, fiber, fat, etc to any carb, high or low GI, and that claimed GI is no longer accurate. It drops. Many people have carbs only, that is a key with WMS and for it to be taken by itself immediately post workout and then having carbs and or carbs and protein 30 minutes later. the WMS has already done the trick.

[ParadiseCup]

www.TrueProtein.com

http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=23&pid=6737

So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double.

WMS can help the absorption rates of many of your favorite supplements like creatine monohydrate, creatine ethyl ester, cell volumization and nitric oxide type supplements, etc. Nutrients like this often times are left in the stomachs harsh acidic environment and degrade absorption rates. WMS helps shuttle these nutrients to bypass the stomach and allow the body to assimilate these nutrients at a much higher rate.

WMS has the ability to replenish the body’s glycogen stores much faster than a mix of maltodextrin or dextrose. This is accomplished again by WMS’s ability to bypass the stomach and go to the intestines for immediate absorption. WMS’s ability to shuttle all these nutrients and starch gives the body an immediate "pump" you can physically feel in your muscles post workout. You will see a much larger, fuller and rounder muscle belly.

Dextrose and maltodextrin can cause water retention and bloating, hence WMS’s popularity with pre contest and contest preparation carbohydrate replenishment. Many dieters choose WMS as their carb of choice as it is sugar free and an ideal source of a long chain complex carbohydrate.

[Erik]

so ALL carbs aren't the same ? a 286g wedge of watermelon has 22grams of carbs and no fat, likened to a 114g sweet potato with 24 grams of carbs and no fat. you could diet on either one for all your meals as long as your carb count was correct ?

Goal post shifting again.

All glucose based carbs result in the same end point - glucose.

Fructose is obviously treated differently by the body - AND is one of the infamous "low GI carbohydrates".

[dvsness]

www.TrueProtein.com

http://www.trueprotein.com/Product_Details.aspx?cid=23&pid=6737

But aren't they SELLING it? That is a skewed perspective.

[Erik]

Many people have carbs only, that is a key with WMS and for it to be taken by itself immediately post workout and then having carbs and or carbs and protein 30 minutes later. the WMS has already done the trick.

Ok, you're changing the topic back and forth here

Now you're back to the PWO period, but the previous posts your'e talking about overall diet strategy as it relates to carb type.

Ok, you take WM by itself PWO. No problem.

Doesn't change what I'm saying - do people have dieting meals that are carb-only? No. Hence why the issue of GI is irrelevant (other food stuffs change the rate of entry into the blood) During the periods outside of the PWO period. Not to mention having BCAAs with WM is not actually taking WM alone. Alone means with nothing else. LOL

But to bring it back to the PWO period, even if WM is a higher molecular weight carb than say dextrose, maltodextrin, rice cakes, whatever - the research says it's not relevant. 60g of glucose-based carbs is 60g of glucose-based carbs and as such as the same reglycogenation potential (which again, is a secondary goal of the PWO period anyway).

[FitFighter]

Wow! This is some really great information! Thanks everyone. I know I need PWO carbs or else I will not recover properly and I also read that I need the insulin spike to drive the nutrients (protein) into the cells. My question was, because I like to have a banana, I read that fructose will restore liver glycogen and not muscle glycogen. I am most likely not liver glycogen depleted, so I guess for clean gains and no fat gain, I should not have something with fructose in it. I should eat something with glucose. However, I 1) prefer to eat my food and not drink it and 2) prefer to eat something with some nutritional value- not pop tarts or something like that. Great post- thanks all :)

[dvsness]

The commonly cited advantages of high molecular weight carbs appear to be unsubstantiated by research. While the speed of gastric emptying may be faster with WMS, glycogen resynthesis appears to be rate limited by intestinal glucose absorption. Not to mention the fact that glycogen replenishment is a very small part of postworkout nutrition...

It seems as though there is no stopping the WMS hype...so, lets examine the research.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17173770

Purpose: To compare the effects of high (HMW) versus low molecular weight (LMW) glucose polymer solutions on the pattern of substrate oxidation during exercise. Methods: Eight cyclists (VO[2max]: 63 ? 8 mL.kg[-1].min[-1]) performed three 150-min cycling trials at 64 ? 5% VO[2max] while ingesting 11.25% HMW (500-750 kg.mol[-1], 21 mOsm.kg[-1]) or LMW (8 kg.mol[-1], 110 mOsm.kg[-1]) solutions providing 1.8 g of carbohydrate per minute, or plain water. Substrate oxidation was determined using stable-isotope methods and indirect calorimetry. Results: Exogenous carbohydrate oxidation rate was not affected by carbohydrate molecular weight (P = 0.89, peak rate: 0.93 x/- 1.37 g.min[-1]). There was no effect of carbohydrate molecular weight on endogenous carbohydrate or fat oxidation rates (P = 0.30), plasma free fatty acid (P = 0.14), lactate (P = 0.38), or glucose concentrations (P = 0.98), nor were there any serious gastrointestinal complaints reported for either of the two solutions during exercise. Conclusions: Despite previous reports of faster gastric emptying and glycogen resynthesis suggesting enhanced glucose delivery, a markedly hypotonic HMW glucose polymer solution had no effect on exogenous and endogenous substrate oxidation rates during exercise, relative to a LMW glucose polymer solution. These data are consistent with there being no effect of carbohydrate structure or solution osmolality or viscosity on exogenous glucose oxidation and that ingested glucose polymers can only be oxidized on average up to 1.0 g.min[-1] during exercise.



During exercise, HMW carbs offered no advantage over a LMW solution. This seems to lend credence to the idea that glycogen replenishment is rate limited. So no matter how fast WMS is absorbed, glycogen replenishment can only happen so fast...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12617691

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (> or =1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

Again, when large amounts of carbohydrate is ingested, glycogen replenishment is a rate limited process.

The only research that has supported HMW carbs postworkout has been done on fasted individuals in a completely glycogen depleted state...in which case the speed would offer an advantage.
Its important to remember here that regardless of carb source, the end product is the same (glucose) and aside from glycogen replenishment being rate limited, its also only marginally important for bodybuilding applications.

[Erik]

Wow! This is some really great information! Thanks everyone. I know I need PWO carbs or else I will not recover properly and I also read that I need the insulin spike to drive the nutrients (protein) into the cells.

Actually, the first and foremost goal of the PWO period is to halt protein breakdown and stimulate protein synthesis. Basically to kick start the recovery process. Insulin does help with this, yes.


My question was, because I like to have a banana, I read that fructose will restore liver glycogen and not muscle glycogen.

This is true, however fructose/glucose ratio in a banana changes with how ripe it is. A more ripe banana is more glucose than a less ripe banana. Just a little FYI.

I am most likely not liver glycogen depleted, so I guess for clean gains and no fat gain, I should not have something with fructose in it.

It's not so much for limiting fat gain, as the whole de novo lipogenesis process isn't really something to be worried about. (ie. fat gain from an overflow of liver glycogen for example).

Some fructose isn't bad. All fructose is not a good idea.


I should eat something with glucose. However, I 1) prefer to eat my food and not drink it and 2) prefer to eat something with some nutritional value- not pop tarts or something like that. Great post- thanks all :)

You don't have to drink your PWO carbs if you don't want to. One advantage to sticking with solid food is satiety - food fills you up more than a drink does and in a dieting state, hunger is one thing to do everything you can to control.

My rules for PWO carbs are simple.

Concern yourself witih carb number first and foremost. If you're after 40g carbs PWO, then have what you want that fulfills that need. (a low fat, glucose-based carbohydrate). The options are endless.

See this thread for all sorts of different PWO things people do ... successfully. http://leanbodiesfitness.com/showthread.php?t=8499

[FitFighter]

Thanks Erik!

[ParadiseCup]

2) prefer to eat something with some nutritional value- not pop tarts or something like that.why are you saying that pop-tarts have no nutritional value ?

[Shelly]

why are you saying that pop-tarts have no nutritional value ?

i heart pop tarts!!



hey Cam wheres Trace???:shrug:

[ParadiseCup]

here is an article written by Justin Harris

High Molecular Weight Carbohydrates
Written by Justin Harris


It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high-carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post-exercise meal has been scrutinized and analyzed to make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.


It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high-carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post-exercise meal has been scrutinized and analyzed to make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

Following exercise-induced depletion of glycogen stores, levels of the enzyme glycogen synthetase become elevated. This very important metabolic enzyme enables the body to replace lost muscle and liver glycogen. Typical rates of glycogen re-synthesis after short term, high-intensity exercise (i.e. weightlifting) are much higher than glycogen re-synthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers, which are the predominantly used during short term, high intensity exercise, have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4) What this means is that the body has a greater need (and a greater ability) to restore depleted glycogen stores following short term, high intensity training.
Studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post-exercise results in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Because of this fact, it's common to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. The Glycemic Index (GI) gives a number to carbohydrates based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the quicker it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. The highest GI food is glucose, with a score of 100. One particular form of glucose (D-glucose, aka Dextrose) quickly became the post-workout carbohydrate of choice based on the speed with which it enters the bloodstream and raises insulin levels. It's important to understand that not all sugars are created equal. For example, fructose (or fruit sugar) rapidly restores liver glycogen levels at the expense of muscle glycogen stores. The bottom line is that it's important to ingest quick-acting carbohydrates to begin the repair and rebuilding process.

What if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post-workout carbohydrate war: High molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in providing a wide range of post-workout benefits.

The words most often thrown around when talking about HMW carbohydrates are "gastric emptying" and "osmolality." These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is related to the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic while a solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of nutrient uptake occurs. (11) A very low osmolality means the solution will get to your muscles with great speed and efficiency.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower its osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher its osmolality. Therefore, a carbohydrate's molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000; whereas, the molecular weight of dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This statistic helps quantify the difference between the two carbohydrate sources. The osmolality of a particular HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution, which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that in the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and dextrose is your mother's Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate. (13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout?

One particular study showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 whole hours after ingestion. The scientists in the study concluded that "the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of re-synthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise."(6) In essence, the scientists are saying that HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles significantly faster than whatever carbohydrate you're currently using."

Another study that observed glycogen synthesis rates in rats following starvation showed that HMW glycogen was initially synthesized at a faster rate than low molecular weight glycogen. (8) However, blood sugar and insulin levels were not statistically different between the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose solution. What this means is that despite being a complex carbohydrate, the HMW carbohydrate still raised insulin levels to about the same level as dextrose. We're dealing with a complex carbohydrate that powers through the stomach, causing no bloating, and reaches the blood stream as fast as dextrose; yet, it restores glycogen 70% faster.

Does it sound too good to be true? It gets better.

The osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post-workout, as well as increase the uptake of whatever vital nutrients are added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That's right, all the "stuff" you've been ingesting after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle as quickly as possible, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is that amino-based nutrients such as whey protein, Amino Acids, and Creatine all have a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate; therefore, when adding other nutrients into the drink mix, you must consider the effect they will have on the total molecular weight of the solution. In theory, too much protein, Creatine, and other nutrients will reduce the effectiveness-specifically the speed--of the HMW drink.

For this very reason, it's my belief that added amino-based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My post workout recommendation for a 200 lb bodybuilder would be 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g Creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA's. This meal should be followed, approximately 15-30 minutes later, with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates; preferably a fast-digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the composition of muscle, you'll see that there's much more to it than just contractile tissue. Don't forget the water, stored glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, and capillaries. By employing HMW carbohydrate powders, carbohydrate reserves can be quickly replenished, along with water and any other cell volumizing nutrients you consume along with it. Remember, faster glycogen restoration decreases catabolism and increases the rate of protein synthesis. And as an additional cosmetic benefit, the extra glycogen and water will create full, round-bellied, muscles that will be the envy of all your bodybuilding friends!

[ParadiseCup]

i heart pop tarts!!



hey Cam wheres Trace???:shrug:up stairs getting ready, we've had an extremely busy week and she's packing today for our trip to KC. we will be leaving tommorrow to help Chad Nichols and Kim Chizevsky judge their show, Muscle Mayhem Classic.

[DanielleA]

Ok, you're changing the topic back and forth here

Now you're back to the PWO period, but the previous posts your'e talking about overall diet strategy as it relates to carb type.

Ok, you take WM by itself PWO. No problem.

Doesn't change what I'm saying - do people have dieting meals that are carb-only? No. Hence why the issue of GI is irrelevant (other food stuffs change the rate of entry into the blood) During the periods outside of the PWO period. Not to mention having BCAAs with WM is not actually taking WM alone. Alone means with nothing else. LOL

But to bring it back to the PWO period, even if WM is a higher molecular weight carb than say dextrose, maltodextrin, rice cakes, whatever - the research says it's not relevant. 60g of glucose-based carbs is 60g of glucose-based carbs and as such as the same reglycogenation potential (which again, is a secondary goal of the PWO period anyway).

Erik - thank you for your contributions to this board. You are very knowledgeable and I love reading your posts. Keep them coming!

[dvsness]

why are you saying that pop-tarts have no nutritional value ?

Without discussing long lists of specific science statistics, studies have found the vast majority of Kellogg ads aimed at children are for unhealthy foods and the majority of foods endorsed by Nickelodeon characters are unhealthy as well.

These studies have also found these marketing techniques make children prefer and request these foods. Even so, Kellogg and Viacom tell parents these practices are not illegal and it is the parents' responsibility to keep junk food out of the hands of their children. I am inclined to agree.

Before arguing this point any further, we must establish that Pop-Tarts are in fact unhealthy. Many people believe Pop-Tarts are a decent breakfast food but looking at the list of ingredients suggests otherwise.

The first ingredient is, of course, flour, which is bleached, refined and chemically enhanced to make sure it doesn't spoil.

The second and third ingredients are corn syrup and high fructose corn syrup, with sugar and vegetable oil also being included.

The box also claims the Pop-Tarts are made with real fruit, but Kellogg only includes 2 percent or less of dried fruit among other ingredients, including food coloring.

Pop-Tarts are fortified with 10 percent of your daily value of seven essential vitamins and minerals. Basically, Pop-Tarts are no healthier than a tiny vitamin pill embedded in a candy bar.

- The Western Courier

[ParadiseCup]

you didn't establish any facts that pop tarts are unhealthy, you stated your opinion.
the second and third ingredients you listed are carbs and as Erik stated ALL carbs are equal.
i don't think that most people eat pop tarts to get their fruit intake
nor do they eat pop tarts instead of taking their vitamins

[DanielleA]

you didn't establish any facts that pop tarts are unhealthy, you stated your opinion.
the second and third ingredients you listed are carbs and as Erik stated ALL carbs are equal.
i don't think that most people eat pop tarts to get their fruit intake
nor do they eat pop tarts instead of taking their vitamins

No, we eat them for their sugary wonderfulness!! Ohhh, how I want a pop tart right now :banghead: ...this is making me hungry...maybe I should move onto another thread. LOL

[Erik]

you didn't establish any facts that pop tarts are unhealthy, you stated your opinion.
the second and third ingredients you listed are carbs and as Erik stated ALL carbs are equal.
i don't think that most people eat pop tarts to get their fruit intake
nor do they eat pop tarts instead of taking their vitamins

Isn't your obsession with me getting a little out of hand now? :confused:

To the bolded - you might want to read a tad more carefully. :)

[dvsness]

You asked about nutritional value, Cam. Nutritional value is not macros, but micros. Different question, different response.

[Suzanne]

But poptarts = yummy :D

and clean food = yucky :banghead:

that said i wish i could have poptart pwo but not in the Jeremy plan

[ParadiseCup]

No, we eat them for their sugary wonderfulness!! Ohhh, how I want a pop tart right now :banghead: ...this is making me hungry...maybe I should move onto another thread. LOLexactly, that is where we use them mostly, post workout to induce an insulin response which will shuttle the nutrients in where they need to be.

[Amber]

What about Organic Poptarts? They are probably still not the best but for PWO?


INGREDIENTS: organic wheat flour, organic evaporated cane juice invert, organic evaporated cane juice, organic palm oil, organic whole wheat flour, organic fair traded cocoa, organic vital wheat gluten, organic corn starch, organic dextrose, sea salt, leavening (baking soda, cream of tartar), organic rice starch, organic honey, organic molasses, organic rice bran extract, organic vanilla flavor, algin, sodium citrate, monocalcium phosphate, whey protein concentrate (milk), organic caramel color, colored with betalins, paprika extract (from plants).

[Shelly]

who woulda known there could be such a debate over freakin POPTARTS!!!
:shrug:

[Amber]

who woulda known there could be such a debate over freakin POPTARTS!!!
:shrug:

Thats cause we wants poptarts and we want to be told its okay hahahaha:D

Or at least i do lol.. But since Cameron is my trainer i CAN have them so saweet!

[Shelly]

Thats cause we wants poptarts and we want to be told its okay hahahaha:D

:rolf:

[ParadiseCup]

Thats cause we wants poptarts and we want to be told its okay hahahaha:D

Or at least i do lol.. But since Cameron is my trainer i CAN have them so saweet!:waving: you enjoy them to Amber ! i think that there is a lot of other people here that eat supposed "unhealthy" pop tarts also.

[Amber]

:waving: you enjoy them to Amber ! i think that there is a lot of other people here that eat supposed "unhealthy" pop tarts also.

And that makes me Happy coach!! I know you've never steered me wrong ;)




I guess at the end of the day people should eat what makes most sense to them, There are alot of options layed out here...There will always be a difference in opinion. It's what will work for YOU

[xena]

So far as I'm concerned, poptarts could be made out of dog poop and I would still love them. :awesome:

[Shelly]

So far as I'm concerned, poptarts could be made out of dog poop and I would still love them. :awesome:

hmm if this were the case then i guess they'd be called POOP TARTS!

:rolf::

[xena]

hmm if this were the case then i guess they'd be called POOP TARTS!

:rolf::

That's a good one Shelly! OMG! I almost spit out my coffee!! :spit:

[WillBrink]

I am currently writing an article on the topic of waxy maize. Short answer, it's no better then maltodextrin and or dextrose. Stay tuned....